Defiant For The Borg? Makes No Sense

[Crazy Eddie]

Good. Now answer the OTHER part of the question: on what do you base the statement that Defiant's shields were more effective than Odyssey's shields?

On What Base was Defiant's shields effective:
a. Defiant's shields are effective untill proven otherwise by canon.

You're confusing yourself. There is no positive evidence in canon that the shields WERE effective. There is positive evidence that they were NOT, and that comes from Weyoun in "A Call to Arms." That is the only definitive statement either way, and you have claimed it "contradicts canon."

So I'm asking you: what specifically does Weyoun's statement contradict? Other than your assumption?

You are using the most imprecise arguement you possibily could muster.

Inequity of outcomes is the only precision possible when comparing historical events. A battleship either sinks or it doesn't; historians must seek to examine why one battleship sank and the other one did not, and which differences between those situations had causal power and which ones didn't.

More effective shields would have resulted in a different outcome for this battle. The outcome, however, was the same: defeat.

The episode in question does not establish ineffectiveness.

Nor does it establish effectiveness; it is, at best, inconclusive of both positions.

On the other hand, Weyoun's line in "A Call To Arms" is conclusive, and is not contradicted by this or any other episode.

I regret to inform you that I don't deal in apparent magnitudes on this level of discussion.

Then you have nothing more to say. Defiant's shields are either effective or they are not. We have a canon reference that says they do not.

2)The Die is Cast makes litteral mention of the shields holding by Eddington.

Eddington does NOT say that the shields are actually repelling Jem'hadar weapons. He says they are "down to eighty percent." Not evidence of effectiveness.

3) In Starship Down Defiant's shield are visibly accounted for.

As are Odyssey's shields in The Jem'hadar, despite being easily penetrated by their weapons.

4)Call to Arms it's self proves that While Dax says the shields are at 35% the three Jem'Hadar appear to be striking bare hull.

Irrelevant, since Weyoun states that the shields ARE effective in this case. And this case--alone--is the case that is definitive of shields being effective against Jem'hadar weapons.

And again: none of this should be surprising. Defiant was designed to fight the Borg, not the Dominion.

 

[Deks]

To my recollection, Odyssey shields were vissible but the beams were also seen as going past them ... on the Defiant, the shields were vissible, yet the beams didn't go past the shields.

Down to 80% in 'Die is cast' translates that the shields are ABSORBING the beams and not just allowing them to pass through as if they aren't there.
In case of Dominion/any species weapons, effectiveness of SF shields = not allowing the beams to go through the shields, but absorbing them and lowering their strength.

Otherwise we can say SF shields are ineffective against all types of weapons since systems suffer damage under attack on a regular basis from other species weapons and whatnot.

As for Weyoun's statement that 'Fed shields have always proved useless against Dominion weapons' ... the fact that Ds9 shields prevented those weapons from passing through directly as if they were not there conveniently contradicts Weyoun statement.

Obviously something went amiss with their intelligence since they apparently never realized that SF got a hold of one of their bug ships before the war started ... otherwise, Weyoun would have known about this and likely wouldn't act so surprised.
Which also directly implies that the Dominion may not have had info on the Defiant's technology, and even after they captured it in it's damaged state, it's quite possible they just never bothered to check if the Defiants shields were resisting their weapons since they already captured the ship in question (but also since they damaged it while still cloacked, and preventing it from fighting up to it's potential).

Also ... I should remind you that the Defiant was released into service with numerous bugs that O'Brien barely had time to come up with some kind of half-baked idea in order to keep the ship together (which also could have contributed to why the ship was captured).

As for why would anti-Borg tech be effective against Dominion weapons ...
Number of reasons for one thing.
The Borg are much more advanced compared to the Feds.
Their introduction forced SF to re-examine their approach to defensive/offensive measures.
I have no idea if Borg weapons or systems operate on similar principles like Dominion weapons ... however ... by assimilating thousands of species into the Collective, some of which were VERY advanced to begin with, it's quite possible that at least one of those races were on a similar level like the Dominion.
You had numerous examples in Trek how different species develop in a similar capacity, so there is a good possibility that by developing anti-Borg technology, SF just might have made first steps in creating defenses and weapons that would have a degree of effectiveness on speacies from the entire galaxy ... or at least a good portion of it.

The Defiant may not have been designed to fight the Dominion, yet surprisingly canon evidence suggests that her effectiveness against foes has far surpassed what other SF ships without that tech acomplished at the time when the ship in question was still new.

 

[Saquist]

You're confusing yourself. There is no positive evidence in canon that the shields WERE effective. There is positive evidence that they were NOT, and that comes from Weyoun in "A Call to Arms." That is the only definitive statement either way, and you have claimed it "contradicts canon."

There is no confusion. I wouldn't assume the shields were ineffective in Voyager when they loose a driver coil assembly with the shields up, I therefore don't assume it to be conclusive evidence in Defiant's case.

It is the appropriate dispensation of a standard that all of your arguments lack. More to the point you treat a characters personal perspective, a limited perspective, as sacrosanct. I don't need to result to mythology for a reasonable deduction.

So I'm asking you: what specifically does Weyoun's statement contradict? Other than your assumption?

Yours are the only assumptions:
1. You assume Weyoun's statements simply must be all encompassing apparently as all knowing.

2. You also assume that damage to the shields now means they were not effective.

More effective shields would have resulted in a different outcome for this battle.

That is still false logic, the outcome of the battle have a myriad of variables which effect the final result.
I am thus justified continue to dismiss your reliance of logical fallacies.

The outcome, however, was the same: defeat.

Finally you learn to use the language of the boards to its ultimate end. Precision. The first correct statement you've made in sometime. I commend you.

Nor does it establish effectiveness; it is, at best, inconclusive of both positions.

Another accurate statement that discards the inherent speculation of all your previous attempts at logic.

On the other hand, Weyoun's line in "A Call To Arms" is conclusive, and is not contradicted by this or any other episode.

Back to the false logic: Appeal to Authority

Source A says that p.
Source A is authoritative.
Therefore, p is true.

The Truth or Falsehood of Weyouns statement is not quantifiable. Weyoun's line in "A Call To Arms" is irrelevant.

Then you have nothing more to say. Defiant's shields are either effective or they are not. We have a canon reference that says they do not.

We have no canon reference that says Defiant's shields were not effective.

Eddington does NOT say that the shields are actually repelling Jem'hadar weapons. He says they are "down to eighty percent." Not evidence of effectiveness.

The Script for The Die is Cast does say holding from Eddington. Checking Video: Confirmed: Eddington does say after Defiant is hit, shields at 80%

The shields were indeed effective.
No internal damage was reported on Defiant.

As are Odyssey's shields in The Jem'hadar, despite being easily penetrated by their weapons.

Not according to the visual. Odyssey's shieldless impacts were the same as the shielded impacts.

Visual Evidence:





The preponderance of evidence shows this for a Galaxy as shieldless events. The effects of Odyssey's ineffective shields are exactly the same as Defiant's intitial shieldless encounter with Jem'Hadar weapons, after which further deduction to conclusion is not possible. Defiant is already heavily damaged.

Irrelevant, since Weyoun states that the shields ARE effective in this case. And this case--alone--is the case that is definitive of shields being effective against Jem'hadar weapons.

Your argument has not established irrelevancy. That is an implicit response. Weyoun's statement can only be drawn against the reaction of Dominion weapons against the station, not the Defiant. That reaction is supported by reports from Dukat, Sisko, and Nog further supported by visual presence of a shield around the center of the station and the lack of damage and debris from weapons fire. All of which are no definitive singularly but are supportive collectively.

And again: none of this should be surprising. Defiant was designed to fight the Borg, not the Dominion.

Surprise is irrelevant.
The Borg are irrelevant.
Defiant's shields and weapons have proven effective
You have ignored the Starship Down evidence. You interpret The Die is Cast.
Your arguement is irrelevant and as a result you have become irrelevant.

 

[Timo]

I don't think the Dominion would immediately decide their polaron beam advantage had been compromised just because the enemy got hold of a polaron beam. Probably they would simply go on believing that polaron beams were unstoppable, quite regardless of whether one knew how a polaron beam worked or not.

Remember "Rocks and Shoals" and the Vorta appreciation of the ability of Starfleet engineers to turn rocks into replicators? Quite possibly, no previous enemy of the Dominion had possessed the ability to reverse-engineer Dominion technology and improvise a defense against it.

As for when and whether Starfleet (or other Alpha players) found a way to make their shields effective... Which battles do we have for use as evidence before "Call to Arms"? It's high time for a complete list, now isn't it?

1) "Jem'Hadar". Let's not forget this one. The shields don't protect the ship - but they are never said to be completely transparent to the polaron beams, either. For all we know, they are something like 10% effective. No shield activity is shown; in this, the episode is similar to most other pre-"Call to Arms" episodes where polaron beams cause major damage, with one exception.

2) "The Search". The shields go down in a single bang. Whether they do any good before going down is not explicated. Certainly the ship takes an ungodly amount of damage - but this could be because she was cloaked when the first blasts hit. Again, no shield bubble action is shown, even when dialogue would suggest the shields are up.

3) "The Die is Cast". Again, no shield activity is shown, either on the runabout or the Defiant. The shields of the runabout go down piecemeal, either because the runabout is not being directly fired at (Odo says their craft is being followed and thus supposedly targeted, but we know Odo is a hopeless combat pilot), or because the Jem'Hadar are being extra careful about not hurting the God aboard. The Defiant drops and raises shields, after which a hit brings them down to 80%, and causes a gasoline-style external explosion - the first such from a polaron beam. Later on, from "Call to Arms" on, gasoline explosions tend to signify shield activity; the well-shielded DS9 is constantly covered in them. But gasoline explosions also signify a dozen other things on other occasions.

4) "Starship Down". No visuals of polaron hits before the action moves to the atmosphere of the gas giant. No mention of the extent of damage from the single unseen hit, either on shields or systems. In the atmosphere, a couple of hits reduce shields to 60%, but also inflict massive damage such as knocking out the impulse drive; a sign of polaron penetration through shields? This time, there is definite shield glare - but it could be due to the atmosphere, not because this battle is otherwise different from the preceding ones.

And that's all. Other on-camera fights do not involve polaron beams, and we don't hear about off-camera fights.

I'd say the balance of things is that Starfleet shields until "Call to Arms" were indeed ineffective, and that the only way for a Starfleet vessel to survive a fight with Jem'Hadar ships was to move in and out very quickly... In "Call to Arms", the shields allowed Starfleet and Klingon forces to persist in battle, just like against any regular opponent.

Is the above list complete? Are there further datapoints in the episodes mentioned that should be brought up?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

Down to 80% in 'Die is cast' translates that the shields are ABSORBING the beams and not just allowing them to pass through as if they aren't there.
In case of Dominion/any species weapons, effectiveness of SF shields = not allowing the beams to go through the shields, but absorbing them and lowering their strength.

Indeed, this is the logical conclusion from numerous reports from all over Star Trek even in the face of actual hull damage such as TUC.

Otherwise we can say SF shields are ineffective against all types of weapons since systems suffer damage under attack on a regular basis from other species weapons and whatnot.

Very Logical.

As for Weyoun's statement that 'Fed shields have always proved useless against Dominion weapons' ... the fact that Ds9 shields prevented those weapons from passing through directly as if they were not there conveniently contradicts Weyoun statement.

A character obviously in denial. Indeed.

Obviously something went amiss with their intelligence since they apparently never realized that SF got a hold of one of their bug ships before the war started ... otherwise, Weyoun would have known about this and likely wouldn't act so surprised.

Sensor reports from the 50 attack ships during Die is Cast would have also been useful aswell. Weyoun is obviously not well informed.

Which also directly implies that the Dominion may not have had info on the Defiant's technology, and even after they captured it in it's damaged state, it's quite possible they just never bothered to check if the Defiants shields were resisting their weapons since they already captured the ship in question (but also since they damaged it while still cloacked, and preventing it from fighting up to it's potential).

Yes, all of this speaks to continuity errors in the series on shields and no shields. Frankly it's a fiasco and nothing less.

 

[Saquist]

I don't think the Dominion would immediately decide their polaron beam advantage had been compromised just because the enemy got hold of a polaron beam. Probably they would simply go on believing that polaron beams were unstoppable, quite regardless of whether one knew how a polaron beam worked or not.

Remember "Rocks and Shoals" and the Vorta appreciation of the ability of Starfleet engineers to turn rocks into replicators? Quite possibly, no previous enemy of the Dominion had possessed the ability to reverse-engineer Dominion technology and improvise a defense against it.

As for when and whether Starfleet (or other Alpha players) found a way to make their shields effective... Which battles do we have for use as evidence before "Call to Arms"? It's high time for a complete list, now isn't it?

1) "Jem'Hadar". Let's not forget this one. The shields don't protect the ship - but they are never said to be completely transparent to the polaron beams, either. For all we know, they are something like 10% effective. No shield activity is shown; in this, the episode is similar to most other pre-"Call to Arms" episodes where polaron beams cause major damage, with one exception.

2) "The Search". The shields go down in a single bang. Whether they do any good before going down is not explicated. Certainly the ship takes an ungodly amount of damage - but this could be because she was cloaked when the first blasts hit. Again, no shield bubble action is shown, even when dialogue would suggest the shields are up.

3) "The Die is Cast". Again, no shield activity is shown, either on the runabout or the Defiant. The shields of the runabout go down piecemeal, either because the runabout is not being directly fired at (Odo says their craft is being followed and thus supposedly targeted, but we know Odo is a hopeless combat pilot), or because the Jem'Hadar are being extra careful about not hurting the God aboard. The Defiant drops and raises shields, after which a hit brings them down to 80%, and causes a gasoline-style external explosion - the first such from a polaron beam. Later on, from "Call to Arms" on, gasoline explosions tend to signify shield activity; the well-shielded DS9 is constantly covered in them. But gasoline explosions also signify a dozen other things on other occasions.

4) "Starship Down". No visuals of polaron hits before the action moves to the atmosphere of the gas giant. No mention of the extent of damage from the single unseen hit, either on shields or systems. In the atmosphere, a couple of hits reduce shields to 60%, but also inflict massive damage such as knocking out the impulse drive; a sign of polaron penetration through shields? This time, there is definite shield glare - but it could be due to the atmosphere, not because this battle is otherwise different from the preceding ones.

And that's all. Other on-camera fights do not involve polaron beams, and we don't hear about off-camera fights.

I'd say the balance of things is that Starfleet shields until "Call to Arms" were indeed ineffective, and that the only way for a Starfleet vessel to survive a fight with Jem'Hadar ships was to move in and out very quickly... In "Call to Arms", the shields allowed Starfleet and Klingon forces to persist in battle, just like against any regular opponent.

Is the above list complete? Are there further datapoints in the episodes mentioned that should be brought up?

Timo Saloniemi

I am scanning the episodes to see if the list is complete.

Note on Four:

4) "Starship Down". No visuals of polaron hits before the action moves to the atmosphere of the gas giant. No mention of the extent of damage from the single unseen hit, either on shields or systems. In the atmosphere, a couple of hits reduce shields to 60%, but also inflict massive damage such as knocking out the impulse drive; a sign of polaron penetration through shields? This time, there is definite shield glare - but it could be due to the atmosphere, not because this battle is otherwise different from the preceding ones.

It will be difficult or impossible to establish 60% shield coverage as ineffective. It implies effective coverage otherwise the report is useless. No doubt it's Contradictory to the visual from the damage report.

There is another factor: Ablative Armor.
The armor was first mentioned in The Way of the Warrior. The Armor was never mention in Starship Down which is between two uses and mentions of the Armor. Paradise Lost and The Way of the Warrior.

The obvious problem then with this is continuity. Therefore finding a reason for the shield flash and the crippling systems in this episode will likely elude explanation.

However The Search and The Die is Cast make absolutely no mention of the armor. It seems to be a Season 4 development only is mentioned as such by Captain Benteen. So this could be Sisko's response to the Dominion Weapons if the shield were...indeed...ineffective.

At the very least we have established motive.

 

[Deks]

Timo ... one minor input if you would allow:

Ds9 often skimped on showing shield bubbles to begin with when the Dominion was introduced.
Even during the war, the visual effects played out as if everyone were fighting with no shields whatsoever (even though they were mentioned in the dialogue often).
Then again, with the losses that SF was apparently experiencing, you would have thought they never upgraded their ships to begin with.

Granted ... episodes that didn't feature fleets of ships often did put in visible shields ... then again I think that numerous episodes without fleets of ships also featured shield-less ships as far as visual effects go (and no, I'm not referring to special cases where same frequencies are involved).

So we cannot really take visual effects as concrete evidence at every turn.

I would theorize that the Defiants shields were not really effective in 'the Search' because of the bugs in it's design which O'Brien had no time to patch up entirely before they set off to look for the Founders (plus the damage the ship underwent when cloaked when the battle started thus further diminishing it's ability to fight).
After that episode once the ship was stabilized and prior to the war (but also before capturing the bug ship), I would say it's shields WERE effective against Dominion weapons in variable degrees (possibly up to 50% which would allow for major damage to be taken even with the shields up) ... but it wasn't until they recovered the bug ship and examined Dominion tech they were able to insulate the shields entirely.

 

[Timo]

It will be difficult or impossible to establish 60% shield coverage as ineffective. It implies effective coverage otherwise the report is useless. No doubt it's Contradictory to the visual from the damage report.

I'd argue that shield status is unrelated to the ability of the shield to protect the ship from polaron beams. Those beams would in this argument have twofold effect: they wreak havoc with the ship even through 100% shields, and they also nibble away at the shields (unless they score a direct hit at shield generators or main power systems, in which case the shields collapse at once).

Starfleet jargon may not have caught up to the fact that 60% shields are only 6% effective against this particular weapon; then again, Sisko would be quite interested in knowing that his shields are still 60% effective at keeping the pressure of the gas giant's atmosphere at bay...

So this could be Sisko's response to the Dominion Weapons if the shield were...indeed...ineffective.

I'd hate to attribute such a major development to Sisko, regardless of his engineering past. It's a bit like saying that Malcolm Reed invented the phase cannon, when all we saw was him installing the first phase cannon aboard NX-01...

Then again, an armor that truly ablates would be an excellent rationalization for those gasoline explosions. Ablating hot matter might indeed look like an expanding cloud of combustion gases. And since the presence or absence of ablative armor isn't visually recognizable, it might well be that DS9 was sprayed with that stuff as well, explaining the gasoline explosions on her hull in "Call to Arms" et al.

Whether the armor was applied on the Defiant before or after "The Search", I don't know. But the above theory would call for the armor being present in "Die is Cast" - an episode where remarkably little battle jargon is used during the very brief in-and-out sortie of the Defiant.

Granted ... episodes that didn't feature fleets of ships often did put in visible shields ...

But did we see any episode where polaron beams would have hit a shield bubble? So far, I only know of "Starship Down", and there we could use the excuse that the atmosphere made the bubble visible. This would allow us to speculate that the polaron-resisting shields were not bubbles at all, but skinshields just like those of TOS and TOS movies.

I'd agree that the Feds made advances in shielding even before the last big leap that made them truly polaron-resilient. But I'd also like to suggest that the preceding improvements were really minor, and never caught the attention of the Dominion. Otherwise, Weyoun should not have been quite as surprised in "Call to Arms"!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

I'd argue that shield status is unrelated to the ability of the shield to protect the ship from polaron beams. Those beams would in this argument have twofold effect: they wreak havoc with the ship even through 100% shields, and they also nibble away at the shields (unless they score a direct hit at shield generators or main power systems, in which case the shields collapse at once).

I understand but it's a huge "Iffy" for me. I have to redefine the established meaning of a shield percentage report of this nature just for these special situations even though it's being used in just the same way.

If the Foundation of definitions is not consistent then I have a hard time endorsing even my own speculation on those terms. To me it's an unknown after that point.

Starfleet jargon may not have caught up to the fact that 60% shields are only 6% effective against this particular weapon; then again, Sisko would be quite interested in knowing that his shields are still 60% effective at keeping the pressure of the gas giant's atmosphere at bay...

We could attribute it to that but the report was right after a weapons blast. I'd liked to deal with Defiant's shields in terms of Strength. It's clear now with all these example that Defiant's shields were not as strong in the begining as they were near the end.

Perhaps there was an advancement. to counter Dominion weapons because one blast or volley took off 20 percent in Starship Down. Maybe effective in this case means stronger. Remember just because a shield is at 60 percent doesn't mean the coverage is total. IT's just a report of the total shield strength.

"Shields at 60% Aft shields have collapsed." for example.

I'd hate to attribute such a major development to Sisko, regardless of his engineering past. It's a bit like saying that Malcolm Reed invented the phase cannon, when all we saw was him installing the first phase cannon aboard NX-01...

Then again, an armor that truly ablates would be an excellent rationalization for those gasoline explosions. Ablating hot matter might indeed look like an expanding cloud of combustion gases. And since the presence or absence of ablative armor isn't visually recognizable, it might well be that DS9 was sprayed with that stuff as well, explaining the gasoline explosions on her hull in "Call to Arms" et al.

Whether the armor was applied on the Defiant before or after "The Search", I don't know. But the above theory would call for the armor being present in "Die is Cast" - an episode where remarkably little battle jargon is used during the very brief in-and-out sortie of the Defiant.

Granted ... episodes that didn't feature fleets of ships often did put in visible shields ...

But did we see any episode where polaron beams would have hit a shield bubble? So far, I only know of "Starship Down", and there we could use the excuse that the atmosphere made the bubble visible. This would allow us to speculate that the polaron-resisting shields were not bubbles at all, but skinshields just like those of TOS and TOS movies.

I'd agree that the Feds made advances in shielding even before the last big leap that made them truly polaron-resilient. But I'd also like to suggest that the preceding improvements were really minor, and never caught the attention of the Dominion. Otherwise, Weyoun should not have been quite as surprised in "Call to Arms"!

Timo Saloniemi

I had heard a rumor that Sisko had access to the Ablative Armor reserach during his time on the Defiant project.

 

[Deks]

So we do agree (for the most part) that the Defiant's technology was actually effective to a good degree against Dominion weapons before the war started (at the very least enough to help it survive).
But it wasn't until they retrieved the bug ship that SF was able to fully insulate the shields so the polaron beams completely stopped penetrating the shields entirely and just reduced them in intensity like any other conventional particle beam would upon making contact.

 

[Timo]

I understand but it's a huge "Iffy" for me. I have to redefine the established meaning of a shield percentage report of this nature just for these special situations even though it's being used in just the same way.

But what is the established meaning of a shield percentage report?

A runabout's 100% shields must be weaker than an explorer's 100% shields. The percentage is only a measure of shield health, as pertains to the specific ship in question. It doesn't tell anything about the shield's ability to resist a weapon of given strength: a 70% Danube shield would probably do a poorer job than a 10% Galaxy shield in protecting from the same gun.

This meaning is not altered one iota if we accept that polaron beams penetrate shields better than phaser beams. Phasers, too, cause damage even when shields are up and not yet pounded into 0% submission. They, too, penetrate shields to some extent. Yet it seems that most of a phaser or photon torpedo barrage is blocked until the shields collapse to 0%, while polaron beams behave a bit differently. The Borg have a weapon that works at the other end of that spectrum: in "Q Who?", their green blasts collapse the shields while causing zero damage on the ship, and in later episodes, their tractor beams do the same. Yet in all cases, it makes sense to give shield health reports in percentages of maximum, since that at least tells something reasonably constant and universal. Worf probably couldn't accurately tell Picard which percentage of a new and exotic death ray was being blocked anyway - only Spock could do that, and only Spock would understand his own reports. But Worf can read the dial that tells him about shield health, and Picard can base his decisions on that.

I had heard a rumor that Sisko had access to the Ablative Armor reserach during his time on the Defiant project.

He probably would have. Doesn't mean he could create ablative armor with the resources of DS9, necessarily.

Then again, the TNG Tech Manual suggests that a layer of ablating armor is applied on all starships for micrometeoroid protection. It presumably needs to be frequently reapplied, since supposedly it ablates! Thus, any ship maintenance facility worth the name would have the technology to apply ablative armor of some thickness - and that ability might be modified to create an armor that is several centimeters thick and much more effective than the usual micrometeoroid shield.

In any case, the secret of the ablative armor must be in its ability to constantly replenish itself, so that sustained or repeated hits don't create holes in it. Perhaps this is accomplished by a series of nozzles, perhaps by a series of replicators...

The tech would probably be accessible to every engineer in Starfleet, although not all of them would know how to create very thick and very efficiently self-repairing layers of the armor...

So we do agree (for the most part) that the Defiant's technology was actually effective to a good degree against Dominion weapons before the war started (at the very least enough to help it survive).

I'm not sure about that. The Odyssey, too, withstood lots and lots of pounding. The Defiant never stayed in a ten-minute firefight with three Jemmie battlebugs! There might be no qualitative difference between the Odyssey in "Jem'Hadar" and the Defiant in "The Die is Cast" - only the quantitative one that the former was a bigger and more durable target, while the latter got hit less.

But it wasn't until they retrieved the bug ship that SF was able to fully insulate the shields so the polaron beams completely stopped penetrating the shields entirely and just reduced them in intensity like any other conventional particle beam would upon making contact.

This is possible. However, it's just as possible that the breakthrough in shield development was made irrespective of the captured bugship, based merely on the sensor logs of the various ships that had been hit with polaron beams so far.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Agreed the technological breakthrough could have happened irrespective of the captured bug ship.

Also ... Defiant was undergoing special circumstances when in fights with the bugs before the war.
First off, it was released with design flaws/bugs that were still being patched, so in 'The Search' this likely played a crucial role in the battle accompanied by the fact the vessel sustained damage before decloaking/raising shields and going into full combat mode.

Battling in the atmosphere of a gas giant was also a special circumstance really.
But since the shields were simply reported as dropping down significantly in % after being hit would likely be a combination of the gas giant + the powerful polaron beam being fired.

The fights prior to the war relied on multiple factors ... but I would argue the defensive tech onboard the Defiant before the war started was effective to a degree.

 

[Timo]

One also wonders how much of this was due to the fact that Odo tended to be aboard. Even a runabout would suddenly become reasonably well shielded if the rebellious Founder was piloting her...

Theoretically, the Jem'Hadar might not have known about Odo's presence on all occasions. But there's nothing explicit about them not knowing, except in the specific case of "Treachery, Faith and the Great River".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

We do know that the defective Weyoun clone who was able to disable the bug ship with just a runabout had intricate knowledge of the bugs to begin with which gave him a decisive advantage ... so making the right hit would likely score a result in his favour ... then again, this is akin to the BoP having a huge advantage over the Enterprise-D and inflicting massive damage despite it being essentially antiquated in comparison (yet it took the BoP some time to inflict that massive damage because they were hitting it at random places).

Plus we also know the bug ship that was in pursuit of the runabout was hesistant on opening fire because Odo was onboard.
Therefore that was another factor that gave the smaller ship a tactical edge ... but it's still dubious at best that the bugs would have such an exposed vulernability.

 

[Saquist]

So we do agree (for the most part) that the Defiant's technology was actually effective to a good degree against Dominion weapons before the war started (at the very least enough to help it survive).
But it wasn't until they retrieved the bug ship that SF was able to fully insulate the shields so the polaron beams completely stopped penetrating the shields entirely and just reduced them in intensity like any other conventional particle beam would upon making contact.

The evidence seems at agree with that statement and I will always follow the evidence so definitely yes, I agree. If the shields of Defiant were merely weaker then they would not have held in any percentage. One shot would cause damage even through a 100% shield but further shots would have collapsed the shield. That's not what we see. Defiant apparently maintains a certain amount of immunity against the phased poleron beam but does not deflect it entirely.

One also wonders how much of this was due to the fact that Odo tended to be aboard. Even a runabout would suddenly become reasonably well shielded if the rebellious Founder was piloting her...

Theoretically, the Jem'Hadar might not have known about Odo's presence on all occasions. But there's nothing explicit about them not knowing, except in the specific case of "Treachery, Faith and the Great River".

Timo Saloniemi

Wait.

Look at the Search part II. Those runnabouts didn't suffer an equal amount of damage as the Odyssey from the phased poleron beam. It's the first time but not the last. No doubt their resistance is likely do to the fact they are almost always hero ships.

Well, what we do know is that defective Weyoun clone who was able to disable the bug ship with just a runabout had intricate knowledge of the bugs to begin with which gave him a decisive advantage.

Plus we also know the bug ship that was in pursuit of the runabout was hesistant on opening fire because Odo was onboard.
Therefore that was another factor that gave the smaller ship a tactical edge.

Indeed.

Agreed the technological breakthrough could have happened irrespective of the captured bug ship.

Also ... Defiant was undergoing special circumstances when in fights with the bugs before the war.
First off, it was released with design flaws/bugs that were still being patched, so in 'The Search' this likely played a crucial role in the battle accompanied by the fact the vessel sustained damage before decloaking/raising shields and going into full combat mode.

Battling in the atmosphere of a gas giant was also a special circumstance really.
But since the shields were simply reported as dropping down significantly in % after being hit would likely be a combination of the gas giant + the powerful polaron beam being fired.

The fights prior to the war relied on multiple factors ... but I would argue the defensive tech onboard the Defiant before the war started was effective to a degree.

I can only contradict the Gas Planet affecting Defiants shields. Defiant wasn't going sufficiently fast enough to be encountering reentry tempertures like the Enterprise did when they were forced into the ionosphere. A visible shield flare of a particular type and that didn't show up here. I don't believe there was any intention or factor for the Gas Planet atmosphere.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You're confusing yourself. There is no positive evidence in canon that the shields WERE effective. There is positive evidence that they were NOT, and that comes from Weyoun in "A Call to Arms." That is the only definitive statement either way, and you have claimed it "contradicts canon."

There is no confusion. I wouldn't assume the shields were ineffective in Voyager when they loose a driver coil assembly with the shields up, I therefore don't assume it to be conclusive evidence in Defiant's case.

Nobody said it was. What you were asked to provide is evidence that Defiant's shields ARE effective, not a lack of evidence that they're not. Being the big fan of logic that you are, you know that you cannot prove a negative, nor can you assume a positive, especially when circumstantial evidence exists to contradict that assumption.

More to the point you treat a characters personal perspective, a limited perspective, as sacrosanct.

Yes. That's because dialog is ALSO canon, and where dialog contradicts VFX, dialog is true.

So I'm asking you: what specifically does Weyoun's statement contradict? Other than your assumption?

Yours are the only assumptions:
1. You assume Weyoun's statements simply must be all encompassing apparently as all knowing.

No, I simply assume Weyoun is correct, and that his statement is canon. If you disagree, you need to describe an example where Weyoun is incorrect.

2. You also assume that damage to the shields now means they were not effective.

I don't assume anything at all. Shields have and have not lost power when penetrated by alien weapons; shields have and have not stopped alien weapons without loosing any power. The only thing that counts as evidence that Weyoun is wrong is direct contradiction of Weyoun with other dialog; i.e. Dax saying "Shields are holding" or something of that nature.

In other words: Weyoun--a character in canon--can only be contradicted by another character in canon. He cannot be contradicted by Saquist, or Saquist's theory/interpretation/logic.

That is still false logic, the outcome of the battle have a myriad of variables which effect the final result.

Nope. Defiant was able to effectively engage he Jem'hadar in nearly every OTHER instance. The lack of effective shields is the only outstanding variable that may account for this. Sisko's lack of combat experience could be presented as another example... on the other hand, I don't think a man who spent his early career fighting the Tzenkethi and then surviving a face-to-face scrap with the Borg could be described as a greenhorn.

So again: Defiant was defeated in this battle, but triumphed elsewhere under similar circumstances. The lack of shield effectiveness is the only outstanding variable that may account for this.

Back to the false logic: Appeal to Authority

Source A says that p.
Source A is authoritative.
Therefore, p is true.

You're a little late for that one, Saquist, since any complaint of "You contradict the canon" as you often make is, by definition, appeal to authority. You either care about canon references or you don't.

We have no canon reference that says Defiant's shields were not effective.

Weyoun said it. What you mean to say is "I don't want to believe there is a canon reference."

Not according to the visual. Odyssey's shieldless impacts were the same as the shielded impacts.

Strictly speaking, Odyssey doesn't have any shieldless impacts, since there are no references in dialog where Keogh explicitly tells his officers "drop the shields." It wouldn't be tactically sound to do so, since that would invite boarding action from the Jem'hadar.

He "diverted shield power" to the weapons, which could just as easily mean reducing the shields to a lower level otherwise insufficient to defend against weapons. Similar to "divert auxiliary power to shields" as often appears in dialog.

The preponderance of evidence shows this for a Galaxy as shieldless events. The effects of Odyssey's ineffective shields are exactly the same as Defiant's intitial shieldless encounter with Jem'Hadar weapons, after which further deduction to conclusion is not possible. Defiant is already heavily damaged.

Except we know from dialog EXACTLY when Defiant's shields actually failed: not until the end of the battle, just before they were boarded, when main power went down.

Hence you concede the point: Defiant's shields do not seem to be more effective against the Jem'hadar weapons than Odyssey's weapons.

Your argument has not established irrelevancy. That is an implicit response. Weyoun's statement can only be drawn against the reaction of Dominion weapons against the station, not the Defiant.

Weyoun isn't referring to the station, he specifically says "Federation" shields.

Surprise is irrelevant.
The Borg are irrelevant.

And THIS is the part where I officially stop taking you seriously...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'd argue that shield status is unrelated to the ability of the shield to protect the ship from polaron beams. Those beams would in this argument have twofold effect: they wreak havoc with the ship even through 100% shields, and they also nibble away at the shields (unless they score a direct hit at shield generators or main power systems, in which case the shields collapse at once).

I understand but it's a huge "Iffy" for me. I have to redefine the established meaning of a shield percentage report of this nature just for these special situations even though it's being used in just the same way.

What IS the established meaning of a shield percentage? This is another "speed of plot" issue if you ask me; "Shields at 60%" alternately means "sixty percent power left" or "sixty percent effective," depending on who's writing the episode. Then there's the fact that earlier trek episodes--especially in TOS--didn't even do shield percentages and measuring shield power was hardly an exact science. In Elaan of Troyus we have spock reporting, "Direct hit to Number Four shield... it will not withstand another hit in that sector..." which probably means THAT ONE SHIELD has been weakened because the Klingons keep hitting it. This is similar to what happened in "Journey to Babel" where the Orion scout ship weakened one of their shields and Chekov tried to shore it up by transferring power power to it: "Deflectors firming up, Sir... still weakened, Keptin."

And then there's TUC, where even with shields at full power Chang's torpedoes were still carving divots out of the hull. And in TMP, where "deflector power is down seventy percent" despite some of the glowpedoes effects leaking through into the ship.

So I think it's safe to say different weapons penetrate shields in different ways, and then not always consistently. Jem'hadar weapons just happened to be very effective at it--armor piercing shells, you might say--far more than any other type of weapon we've seen. The thing about armor piercing ammunition is that it invariably does more damage to the INSIDE of the ship than it does outside, although fifty armor piercing rounds on the side of a tank will probably cause much of that armor to fall off.

 

[Saquist]

Nobody said it was. What you were asked to provide is evidence that Defiant's shields ARE effective....

Established Canon:
Proof that Defiant's shields are effective:

DS9: Defiant- The Defiant's shields repel Cardassian compressors without damage.

DS9: Rules of Engagement- Defiant's shields repel Klingon disruptures

DS9: The Way of the Warrior-Defiant's shields and armor repel Klingon disruptures

The question of Defiant's shield effetiveness is established canon.

Yes. That's because dialog is ALSO canon, and where dialog contradicts VFX, dialog is true.

Canon is not in question. Canon /= Truth.
That is appeal to authority not logic in the face of contradiction. It rules your argument out as fallacy.

No, I simply assume Weyoun is correct, and that his statement is canon. If you disagree, you need to describe an example where Weyoun is incorrect.

Yes, simply, and illogicaly in the face of contradiction.
You have the evidence. Using the word ineffective is permited under the definition but you have equated ineffective as useless by the direct comparison with the Odyssey encounter. You error is apparent and absolute.

I don't assume anything at all. Shields have and have not lost power when penetrated by alien weapons; shields have and have not stopped alien weapons without loosing any power. The only thing that counts as evidence that Weyoun is wrong is direct contradiction of Weyoun with other dialog; i.e. Dax saying "Shields are holding" or something of that nature.

Any comment of shield integrity percentage in the face of the poleron beam is a contradiction to your arguement.

In other words: Weyoun--a character in canon--can only be contradicted by another character in canon. He cannot be contradicted by Saquist, or Saquist's theory/interpretation/logic.

-Strawman-
I have given no theory to contradict canon. The rejoinder is thus dismissed.

Nope. Defiant was able to effectively engage he Jem'hadar in nearly every OTHER instance. The lack of effective shields is the only outstanding variable that may account for this. Sisko's lack of combat experience could be presented as another example... on the other hand, I don't think a man who spent his early career fighting the Tzenkethi and then surviving a face-to-face scrap with the Borg could be described as a greenhorn.

I did not offer the modifier "outstanding". The statement was simple and truthful. You also did not interject "outstanding" previously. The number of variables that may effect the outcome of the battle are not limited to Defiant's shield effectiveness. It is a fact that you yourself have address to which now you contradict. (numbers)

You're a little late for that one, Saquist, since any complaint of "You contradict the canon" as you often make is, by definition, appeal to authority. You either care about canon references or you don't.

You do not comprehend. Appeal to Authority has nothing to do with canon. Appeal to Authority is a false syllogism. (A fallacy of logic). It has nothing do do with the officialty OF Weyoun's dialouge in reference in Star Trek.

Strictly speaking, Odyssey doesn't have any shieldless impacts, since there are no references in dialog where Keogh explicitly tells his officers "drop the shields." It wouldn't be tactically sound to do so, since that would invite boarding action from the Jem'hadar.

False:
Keogh directs shield power to weapons.
The Jem Hadar ramming is thus uncontested no presence of shielf flicker.

He "diverted shield power" to the weapons, which could just as easily mean reducing the shields to a lower level otherwise insufficient to defend against weapons. Similar to "divert auxiliary power to shields" as often appears in dialog.

That's not what he said.


Except we know from dialog EXACTLY when Defiant's shields actually failed: not until the end of the battle, just before they were boarded, when main power went down.

Hence you concede the point: Defiant's shields do not seem to be more effective against the Jem'hadar weapons than Odyssey's weapons.

No conclusion is possible from aparent values since the are varible thus there is no concession.

Weyoun isn't referring to the station, he specifically says "Federation" shields.

False Context.
Weyoun's comment is in context of Dukat's declaration that the station's shields are holding.

Surprise is irrelevant.
The Borg are irrelevant.

And THIS is the part where I officially stop taking you seriously...

That was the intention.

 

[Manticore]

Nobody said it was. What you were asked to provide is evidence that Defiant's shields ARE effective....

Established Canon:
Proof that Defiant's shields are effective:

DS9: Defiant- The Defiant's shields repel Cardassian compressors without damage.

DS9: Rules of Engagement- Defiant's shields repel Klingon disruptures

DS9: The Way of the Warrior-Defiant's shields and armor repel Klingon disruptures

And what does this have to do with the price of yo-yos in Russia with regards to her effectiveiness against Dominion weapons?

 

[Deks]

Nobody said it was. What you were asked to provide is evidence that Defiant's shields ARE effective....

Established Canon:
Proof that Defiant's shields are effective:

DS9: Defiant- The Defiant's shields repel Cardassian compressors without damage.

DS9: Rules of Engagement- Defiant's shields repel Klingon disruptures

DS9: The Way of the Warrior-Defiant's shields and armor repel Klingon disruptures

And what does this have to do with the price of yo-yos in Russia with regards to her effectiveiness against Dominion weapons?

The fact it was able to come out of most of the engagements with the bugs (after 'The Search' episode and prior to the war) as victorious?
Ablative hull armor alone would not be able to protect the ship for very long (even Klingon weapons were dangerous enough to breach the armor in less than what ... a minute? ... and the only armor that was able to protect a SF ship for long periods of time was the deployable armor technology from 26 years into the future).
The ablative hull armor during DS9 events is just another layer of skin for added protection and allows the ship a nick of time to survive ... it was not designed though to withstand constant pounding for 10 mins or hours from equally powerful foes.
With several bugs firing at you constantly, the shields had to have been effective in a significant enough capacity to increase the vessels survavibility factor.