I wouldn't overlook the contribution of the editor. That could be just me though.
Spoilers Deep Space 9: Revisited and Reassessed
- Thread starter Doc Mugatu
- Start date
I wouldn't overlook the contribution of the editor. That could be just me though.
"Tribunal" did not present anything we didn't already know. So again, it served no purpose other than filling out the season.
I discount the novels as non-canonical tripe so please don't mention them again (). I did credit "Second Skin" with furthering the Cardassian's internal strife sub-plot thereby somewhat justifying itself. I just believe they could have easily done something better than what they did.
I'm pretty sure "Tribunal" was the first time we ever saw the surface of Cardassia in any detail and the only time we got to see the Cardassian justice system in action.
You pretty much lost me when you described the novels in that manner, though.
"The Abandoned" (S3E6)
The one thing I miss most of all from The Original Series in the silver age Trek of TNG & DS9 is the more adult reasoning and temperament. The immature thinking and juvenile morality can be a bit too much in episodes that deal with Starfleet-Alpha quadrant at war. According to Sun Tzu one should know two things when at war: 1) Yourself and 2) your enemy. This episode dealt with both.
The crew of DS9 did make useful discoveries regarding the Jem'Hader, but almost as an unintended consequence. They also squandered the opportunity to deliberately learn much more. Honestly (as much as I know there are many great episodes to come), Starfleet should have moved to replace Cmdr. Sisko. Not to mention that all the lifeforms killed at the hands of this particular Jem'Hader are now on the hands of Sisko and Odo. Odo laments early on that he feels an obligation to try and atone for some of what the Founders have done - he does this by unleashing a genetic super-warrior whose only purpose is to kill (usually by slaughter). Sorry, that is pretty wonky philosophy. No wonder in all these silver-aged Treks it had the Federation foreshadowed as losing whatever conflict for survival they were engaged in. Not attacking civilians is a reasonable prohibition to a civilized organization. Not doing what you can against legitimate military assets only serves to invite defeat (especially when they have already demonstrated they believe everyone and everything are legitimate targets).
The one thing I miss most of all from The Original Series in the silver age Trek of TNG & DS9 is the more adult reasoning and temperament. The immature thinking and juvenile morality can be a bit too much in episodes that deal with Starfleet-Alpha quadrant at war. According to Sun Tzu one should know two things when at war: 1) Yourself and 2) your enemy. This episode dealt with both.
The crew of DS9 did make useful discoveries regarding the Jem'Hader, but almost as an unintended consequence. They also squandered the opportunity to deliberately learn much more. Honestly (as much as I know there are many great episodes to come), Starfleet should have moved to replace Cmdr. Sisko. Not to mention that all the lifeforms killed at the hands of this particular Jem'Hader are now on the hands of Sisko and Odo. Odo laments early on that he feels an obligation to try and atone for some of what the Founders have done - he does this by unleashing a genetic super-warrior whose only purpose is to kill (usually by slaughter). Sorry, that is pretty wonky philosophy. No wonder in all these silver-aged Treks it had the Federation foreshadowed as losing whatever conflict for survival they were engaged in. Not attacking civilians is a reasonable prohibition to a civilized organization. Not doing what you can against legitimate military assets only serves to invite defeat (especially when they have already demonstrated they believe everyone and everything are legitimate targets).
Yes. Both episodes gave further insights into Cardassian society. These types of stories add useful details to the DS9 universe and to the series.
"Second Skin" was DS9's counterpart to TNG's "Face of the Enemy". "Second Skin" (like "Face of the Enemy") was a suspenseful episode, at least for me. Throughout the episode, I kept wondering how Kira was going to get out the predicament that she was in.
Thank you for providing an actual reply. "Second Skin," though I still believe was not a well conceived episode, I will say you have got me to revise my opinion and agree that it did further our understanding of the Cardassians as well as, my previous acknowledgement that it furthered a storyline that would surface later (Cardassian civil war). "Defiant" (S3E9) did much the same brilliantly and was excellent.
I still however do not see how "Tribunal" gave us anything we did not already. We already knew, for example, that Cardassaian trials are procedural farces with the verdict already determined before they start. That it is solely for propaganda.
I knocked the Trek novels earlier mainly because the last Trek novel I read (35 years ago so forgive if I get a detail wrong) had Spock go from Starfleet to being court-martialed then jailed and ultimately a pirate. Or something similarly ridiculous. So outrageously farcical that I couldn't bring myself to read another. That and learning they the makers of Star Trek didn't accept them as canon had me in the "why bother" camp.
Anyway, "Tribunal" was on par with that book (was it Black Fire or Black Ice or something like that? - came out in or around 1983).
According to Memory Alpha you are correct, however, one or two matte paintings does NOT justify an episode or even make it relevant.
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Odo's motives went beyond feelings of atonement.
Odo also had personal motives. Odo had empathy for the Jem'Hadar youngster. Odo didn't want that Jem'Hadar to become a lab specimen and be treated as such, like Odo once was. Besides, since the Jem'Hadar viewed Odo as a god-like figure, there was at least a chance that Odo would be able to connect with the youngster and lead him to a non-violent path. It was worth a try.
I know this show is not Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but on a different level, I have always wondered if the writers meant this episode to also be a story about teenage angst. Remember the B story of the episode was about Jake dating the Dabo girl, over Ben's scepticism about the relationship.
Both the A and B stories were about wayward teens.
Really? Where did you learn that prior to Tribunal?
Garek had previously explained it to Dr. Bashir. I think it was mentioned more than once prior to Tribunal.
Just to be clear: It was never my point that exploration of a previously mentioned aspect of the Cardassian legal system wasn't a valid basis for an episode rather the episode in question specifically was not good and the inclusion of a couple of matte paintings doesn't make an episode go from unacceptable to acceptable.
I understand that but don't give it much credit because of it's inherent implication of hypocrisy. It was akin to the "Scorpion and Frog" fable. In this case Odo refuses to see the nature of the Jem'hadar beast to the point of delusion (despite his usual cynical nature). It is further contextualized by Odo's expression of guilt over something he couldn't control (the actions of the Founders) yet lack of guilt over something he did have control over (releasing a super-killer out into an area of space he knew would go to commit atrocities). It was nonsensical as done in this episode.
Empathy is one thing (and only up to a point can that be claimed), but this episode went beyond that by having Odo became an accomplice before the fact in whatever death and carnage that specific Jem'hadar commits. The blood on Odo's hands went from the abstract to the real. So Odo's sophomoric morality is off-putting.
Here you make a good and valid point. In this light I will say the Jake/Dabo Girl was successful but would still maintain the Odo/Jem'hadar Orphan storyline was weak. A young Jem'hadar warrior was not a credible choice for such a story. Once it became clear he was a slave to his extreme genetic coding the "angst" goes out the window, and it became clear very early on he was, by design, a monster. Odo's solution: set him loose to roam free and slaughter … so long as he's being true to himselfit's okay..
I will agree that may have been the intent. I would maintain it's successful execution (forgive the pun) of that premise was dubious. Excellent post and I thank you for it. You did get me to nudge my appreciation of the episode up a bit.
Treating the episode as a parable is not entirely a propos. It is designed as a means of conveying information about a new race under the guise of the values advanced by the franchise in general. What are the Jem'hadar? Do they have free will? To what extent can they be whatever they want to be, or are they condemned to a specific biological existence? Odo's approach to the Jem'hadar is a secondary part of the episode at best. It allows him to ponder how he would have liked to have been treated. I also think describing Odo's efforts as "sophomoric" is putting the cart before the horse. The Jem'hadar's adaptability was really only explored over a couple of days at best, starting from the point when he was given the White to his reaction to the news that he was going to be shipped off. Indeed, Starfleet's decision curtailed possible lessons that could have been learned.
I might have read too much into the episode, but I do think that the episode attempted to do both, be literal as well as be metaphoric about teenage angst and parenting.
In the story, Odo was essentially acting like the Jem'Hadar youngster's surrogate father. Odo was emotionally invested in seeing that the youngster choose a different path for his life that was non-violent.
Odo tried to show the youngster that there were options in life other than him being a soldier. He even offered to go on a journey with the youngster, to go somewhere far away from it all, where the youngster could start a peaceful life. And the Jem'Hadar youngster was somewhat confused between what Odo was telling him and what his instincts and body were telling him. The youngster showed angst.
In the end, we know what happened. Odo's "child" disappointed him, similar to how Sisko wasn't totally thrilled that Jake kept on dating that Dabo girl.
I still think that what Odo did was worthwhile, even though it did not succeed at the end. Who knows, perhaps, the youngster could turn out to be like the former Borg, Hugh.
At that point in time, that particular Jem'hadar youngster had not killed anyone. He was not guilty of anything other than being a Jem'hadar. Does Starfleet have a right to detain an "innocent" sentient being indefinitely?
As a metaphor, teenagers are not always going to make choices that a parent would like. Should a parent lock the teen in his room forever? Ultimately, the teen has to choose his own path, and you hope for the best.
As to the literal story, the issue with Odo, for me, was his decision at the end. I had mixed feelings about it. Once Odo realized that the youngster was seemingly set on his ways, he probably should have turned the Jem'hadar over to Starfleet. But I can understand what Odo actually did.
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