decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

[Orphalesion]

In the end neither home seemed really healthy for Rugal, from what I remember his Bajoran parents raised him in a way that led him to develop internalized racism against Cardassians (which might be expected from Bajorans given their recent history at that point, but was likely unhealthy for the mental well-being of an underage Cardassian)
Plus, his adopted parents might have loved and accepted him, but we do not know whether a Cardassian trying really hard to be a Bajoran would have been accepted by Bajoran society as a whole.

 

[Oddish]

Admittedly, that bothered me too. Unintended harm might not be abuse per se, but it is harm.

 

[DonIago]

I must say that I was also surprised over the turn of the events.

I mean, if someone had come up and told me when I was about 15 that those I always had regarded as my parents weren't my parents and that I actually did belong to a people which had oppressed the people which I saw as my people, then I would have been hysterical. Being me, I would probably never have accepted that and I would have try to run away from my new "home" as soon as possible and as many times as possible until I finally succeded.

That's seen from my own point of view.

I think that Rugal's welfare and wishes should have had priority in this case.

Isn't there a book about Rugal? I have to read that one!

Aren't you kind of proving the point that Rugal needed more exposure to his own people and that living on Bajor had led him to develop internalized hatred for his own species if not also himself?

 

[Tosk]

To live peacefully on Cardassia, Rugal will be forced to stop being himself. There's no way they're going to put up with him talking about how Cardassia was in the wrong, how he wants to go home to Bajor, etc.

There's harm no matter where he goes, as far as I'm concerned you have to decide which harm is preferable. And a big factor is listening to Rugal.

 

[kkt]

To live peacefully on Cardassia, Rugal will be forced to stop being himself. There's no way they're going to put up with him talking about how Cardassia was in the wrong, how he wants to go home to Bajor, etc.

There's harm no matter where he goes, as far as I'm concerned you have to decide which harm is preferable. And a big factor is listening to Rugal.

Agreed. Rugal wasn't old enough to make the decision entirely on his own, but he was certainly old enough to have his opinion listened to.

 

[TheSeeker]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but @Charles Phipps , the last post prior to your post here was in 2013. As a rule we frown upon threads being resurrected if they have been inactive for a year or more. If there is something you want to address from the old thread please just go ahead and create a new thread and link back to or quote any relevant posts from the old one.

Now, since there has been a lot of new discussion since this thread was revived I won't lock it, but please bear the above in mind when replying to a posts in future.

Thanks!

 

[Oddish]

Despite my sympathy for Rugal's adoptive parents, I do feel that they really needed to be more sensitive. An example of this is about a quarter of the way through the episode, when Sisko temporarily places Rugal with the O'Briens, and his father says: "they won't hurt you... they're human, not Cardassian." That was an ugly thing to say, and it's too bad Keiko wasn't there to verbally smack him upside the head, the way she did Miles.

 

[DonIago]

^It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that Rugal was being raised to hate his own species.

 

[Tosk]

Rugal's parents had just suffered through fifty years of a brutal occupation, where Bajorans were worked to death (and worse) by the Cardassians. And they're expected to be a little softer in their language a little over a year after the occupation ended?

 

[DonIago]

Doesn't that kind of beg the question of whether it was even possible for Bajoran parents to raise a Cardassian child in a non-problematic manner?

 

[Oddish]

It would be difficult, given that everyone would be aware of the Cardassian occupation, and it wouldn't be possible to hide the fact from the child. But the line I quoted earlier was over the top, regardless.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but @Charles Phipps , the last post prior to your post here was in 2013. As a rule we frown upon threads being resurrected if they have been inactive for a year or more. If there is something you want to address from the old thread please just go ahead and create a new thread and link back to or quote any relevant posts from the old one.

Weird, I didn't think I was the one who upped this thread. My bad.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Uh-huh.

I mean you accept the premise of the show where Kirk and Picard are constantly doing this or you don't.

And I absolutely believe Vietnam would hand it over to an American court.

 

[Orphalesion]

Rugal's parents had just suffered through fifty years of a brutal occupation, where Bajorans were worked to death (and worse) by the Cardassians. And they're expected to be a little softer in their language a little over a year after the occupation ended?

Nobody denies that they suffered and that their hostility towards Cardassians wasn't to be expected. It's also likely that they didn't mean to hurt Rugal. And it seemed clear that they loved Rugal as their child.

However, it's also true that what they taught Rugal about Cardassian did cause harm to him, whether they meant to or not. And if you choose to take on the responsibility to raise a Cardassian war orphan and love him despite what his people did to you, well, then you might also want to find it possible to be a bit gentler in your words regarding his species when talking to him.

 

[Tosk]

Whether or not I agree, "maybe they could speak slightly gentler on certain topics" seems like a pretty small criticism of their parenting.

 

[DonIago]

Whether or not I agree, "maybe they could speak slightly gentler on certain topics" seems like a pretty small criticism of their parenting.

Speaking as a gay man who grew up in a household where I wasn't even aware of the concept of homosexuality until I was in my teens (granted we're talking about the '80s here), if I'd been starting to figure out that I wasn't heteronormative and my parents had even jokingly trash-talked gay people, it would have harmed me and I wouldn't consider it a 'small criticism'; I'd consider it a reason why I would never come out to them or trust them to love me for who I really was, regardless of how much they might have acted that way in other regards. Even though I had near-zero reason to believe they would reject me, I still didn't come out to them until I was financially independent of them...just in case.

I can't imagine how much worse it must be for gay children who grow up in openly homophobic environments, being taught by their parents and/or peers to hate themselves before they've even old enough to recognize what's occurring.

Of course, I had an advantage in that I could present as heterosexual; Rugal had no such advantage, so even if his parents tried to moderate themselves around him, it seems highly unlikely that all other Bajorans were as considerate.

 

[Sci]

I mean you accept the premise of the show where Kirk and Picard are constantly doing this or you don't.

I absolutely do not accept the premise that a decision like this would be adjudicated by a starbase commander. The most plausible version of "a Federation official adjudicates this" is that a Federation judge or panel of judges is assigned to the case.

And I absolutely believe Vietnam would hand it over to an American court.

Maybe they would today. A year and a half after the Fall of Saigon (as the episode was set a year and a half after the Cardassian Withdrawal)? I would find it extremely difficult to believe that the Vietnamese government in such a circumstance would willingly hand over a child who had been adopted by Vietnamese citizens in accordance with Vietnamese law.

 

[Orphalesion]

Whether or not I agree, "maybe they could speak slightly gentler on certain topics" seems like a pretty small criticism of their parenting.

No. If you follow the conversation you will see that the criticism is "they emotionally abused their child, probably unwittingly, by instilling internalised hatred towards Cardassians, and himself, in him"
Which is a pretty big criticism.

"they should think more about how they portray Cardassians to Rugal" is a diplomatic suggestion for some improvement.

 

[Tosk]

Rugal didn't just learn from his parents what the Cardassians were doing to the Bajorans, he grew up amongst it. Maybe they thought long and hard about how they'd portray Cardassians to Rugal. And then ultimately decided that it was in his best interests to tell him the truth.

Some might say that lying to Rugal about something he already knew would be emotional abuse.

 

[DonIago]

All Cardassians Are Bastards is the lie, and appears to have been what Rugal was being led to believe.

Again: "they won't hurt you... they're human, not Cardassian." That's not a suggestion that some Cardassians are awful, that's a statement that all Cardassians are awful.

Rugal's reaction to Garak's arguably inappropriate touch on the shoulder was completely out of proportion to the act itself unless he'd been led to believe that a Cardassian touching him at all was a threat requiring an immediate response.