Deanna Troi's costuming

[Orphalesion]

^ Looking "contemporary" isn't necessarily a good thing for fashion in a show taking place hundreds of years in the future.

And yes it is weird to imagine them swapping. That is....I can imagine Sirtis in the role of Yar, but I can't imagine Crosby as Troi or in all the costumes they put Troi in....

Would Crosby still have left? If so would they have hired a replacement counselor (after all they could have hardly promoted Worf to that role) or would they have retired that role and moved Data to Picards left as they had originally planned to do?

 

[borgboy]

I agree that "contemporary" isn't necessarily what the costuming should be going for - the sweater also looked like it would've been appropriate for the late 80s era, as was the sweater Geordie wore on his date with Leah. I guess it's hard to make a sweater look futuristic.
Funny enough, I have an easier time imagining Crosby as Troi than Sirtis as Yar. Would Worf have took over as counselor if Crosby still left? No, but I don't know what they would've done with Worf if Yar had stayed.
I didn't know there were plans to move Data to Picard's left. What was the plan to do with Troi?
I really like Yar, but I do think ultimately the role of Troi was more essential than Yar - although an ongoing tough female character would've been a plus, although a few years later we got Ro, then Kira on DS9.

 

[Orphalesion]

I don't know what the original plan with Troi was. I only once read that the original plan didn't have her on the bridge and the three centre seats were to be filled by Riker, Picard and Data. Presumably Troi would have resided in Sickbay along with Beverly?

I like Troi better than Yar as well and am glad that Troi was kept on the show. And I also like Worf better than Yar.

 

[borgboy]

I like Troi on the bridge, as it gave her a lot more to do, while Data doing his thing was more dynamic for him than just hanging out with Picard and Riker.

 

[Unicron]

Just out of curiosity, what's the source for the idea of moving Data? I haven't heard it before. Personally I think it would have been interesting to see the original position that evolved into Troi's counseling position, more akin to a political officer. As the earlier versions of TNG intended to have the Enterprise away from Earth most of the time (hence the families on board), this officer would have advised the captain when necessary and act as the voice for Federation/Starfleet policy on missions where a resolution was difficult.

 

[borgboy]

Troi being an official Starfleet ambassador would've made a lot of sense. It would've made sense to have her not be in uniform if she wasn't Starfleet.
On the subject of costuming and Troi's look, I never really liked the bun hairstyle and jumpsuit she wore for most of the first season, my least favorite of her looks. I much prefer the minidress.

 

[T'Girl]

It's really hard to imagine Troi and Yar swapping roles ...

I saw Sirtis a few months ago in a older role as a prison guard, also she was the head of the Israeli Massad on NCIS, she can definately play a "tough girl." So I can easily see her as the Enterprise' security chief.

The original idea was to somewhat mirror Jenette Goldstein's Hispanic character of private Vasquez from Aliens.

 

[Catarina]

I could imagine. Marina has bite.

 

[Orphalesion]

Troi being an official Starfleet ambassador would've made a lot of sense. It would've made sense to have her not be in uniform if she wasn't Starfleet.
On the subject of costuming and Troi's look, I never really liked the bun hairstyle and jumpsuit she wore for most of the first season, my least favorite of her looks. I much prefer the minidress.

Yeah making Troi diplomatic officer would have been awesome. Also I think that would have put her in a red uniform which would have suited her far better than the teal of the science division.

And yeop, first season's jumpsuit looked horrible, it didn't look finished!

That with Data originally having Troi's seat...I read that on a Troi fansite years and years ago, it said she was moved there to make her presence in the series stronger.

I'm also very glad she was on the bridge.

Yes Marina could have played the security officer (what was the character's original name before the swap? I think it was Macha Hernandez)
Denise Crosby could not have played Deanna....

 

[Nebusj]

Denise Crosby could not have played Deanna....

You don't think so? Let me offer a couple scenes that I think argue she could have played a credible Deanna Troi.

First: her infamous ``drugs are bad'' speech with Wesley. Granted that it's written with the sort of syndicated-cartoon juvenile attitude that drags down too much of Next Generation's first season; but it is a scene of explaining something a character couldn't work out himself, in terms that he will accept, which is one of the main parts of Troi's role aboard ship.

Second: her seduction of Data, which gets at the role of Troi as this sensuous entity. It's again hampered by the general clumsiness of early Next Generation, but I don't believe anyone's not believed her character.

Third: her holo-farewell to the crew in 'Skin of Evil', in which she describes her thoughts of the only people who matter, those who're named in the opening credits. This I think approximates the role Troi would have as the conscience of the crew.

Obviously none of this is Troi, but, I think it shows aspects of Yar that would be shown in Troi, and I think that Crosby carries them credibly well.

 

[Orphalesion]

Denise Crosby could not have played Deanna....

You don't think so? Let me offer a couple scenes that I think argue she could have played a credible Deanna Troi.

First: her infamous ``drugs are bad'' speech with Wesley. Granted that it's written with the sort of syndicated-cartoon juvenile attitude that drags down too much of Next Generation's first season; but it is a scene of explaining something a character couldn't work out himself, in terms that he will accept, which is one of the main parts of Troi's role aboard ship.

Second: her seduction of Data, which gets at the role of Troi as this sensuous entity. It's again hampered by the general clumsiness of early Next Generation, but I don't believe anyone's not believed her character.

Third: her holo-farewell to the crew in 'Skin of Evil', in which she describes her thoughts of the only people who matter, those who're named in the opening credits. This I think approximates the role Troi would have as the conscience of the crew.

Obviously none of this is Troi, but, I think it shows aspects of Yar that would be shown in Troi, and I think that Crosby carries them credibly well.

Good points. When I think of Yar/Crosby I tend to remember her more horrible scenes rather than the better ones as well as the general cheesyness of the first season. Skin of Evil was really the only story that had good scenes for her.

Still Crosby always seemed somewhat wooden and...weirdly uncomfortable in her role, I wonder if that came form her not being happy with the switch?
Then again as you write a lot of things and characters in Season 1 were kind of awkward, quite possibly she would have grown into the role.

Man you make me wish again that Crosbt hadn't left just to see how her character would have improved.

Maybe it is easier to imagine Siritis as Yar than Crosby as Troi because one played the role only for one season, while the other played her role for the whole series, all movies and some episodes of Voyager.

However I can't help but think that Crosby!Troi would have been a hugely different character.

It would be fun to speculate about her costuming. Would have Denise Crosby kept the short hair? Would they have forced a hairpiece on her like with Sirits?
If Crosby would have been put into civilian outfits like Sirtis, they would have needed to be different colours, at the very least. I think blues and greens would have suited her very well, or pastels. The azure dress would have worked good on her.

 

[Ithekro]

Crosby as Troi would have resulted in a different character based on her appearance. The old notes say "foreign", but most of those are Eastern or Southern European, or Icelandic, probably whoever they got. Crosby probably would have been put as Russian or maybe Swedish I would guess from her blonde hair. She might have had to put on an accent (I don't know if she can or cannot, I don't remember). Her "alien" look would be deturmined after casting (but not three breasts as DC Fontana objected to that). She would be romantically involved with Number One (a holdover from the character of Illia from TMP and Phase II)

 

[Lance]

When I think of Yar/Crosby I tend to remember her more horrible scenes rather than the better ones as well as the general cheesyness of the first season. Skin of Evil was really the only story that had good scenes for her.

Still Crosby always seemed somewhat wooden and...weirdly uncomfortable in her role, I wonder if that came form her not being happy with the switch?
Then again as you write a lot of things and characters in Season 1 were kind of awkward, quite possibly she would have grown into the role.

Man you make me wish again that Crosby hadn't left just to see how her character would have improved.

Everybody grew into their roles later. It's one of the great "what if's" of TNG, whether Tasha would have shown the same kinds of added depth that the rest of the cast got later on. Virtually everybody was more shallow at the beginning.

"Yesterday's Enterprise" doesn't offer much of a clue either, as I've always thought Crosby's performance in that was oddly out-of-sync with the rest of her cast mates. As if they'd all moved on in their characterizations, but she was still pitching it at her Season One base level characterisation. I'd argue that "All Good Things", ironically, actually uses Yar slightly better, particularly in terms of her friendship with Worf.

(Speaking of which, my own theory about Tasha as a character is that she was all set to be a major part of the series, but the addition of Worf to the cast at the final hour effectively unbalanced the ensemble, as much as the writers suddenly realized Worf was too good a character to not use, so they kept writing him into roles that Tasha should have by rights gotten -- the apex of this is "Hide & Q", where Tasha gets banished from Q's game within moments of the episode beginning, while Worf gets to remain on the planet fighting the vicious animal things. How much more effective it would have been to have shown them both working as a team to fight the good fight...?)

 

[T'Girl]

Would have Denise Crosby kept the short hair?

I'm not exactly sure, but I believe Crosby had shoulder length hair at the time she auditioned for the role of Troi/Yar, the producers had her hair cut relatively short for the role of Yar.

If Siritis had been selected for the role of Yar instead of Crosby, the short hair might have gone to Siritis instead. Or she might have wore it tightly pulled back.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I would've liked to have seen Macha Hernandez in action, I get the feeling Sirtis would've stuck with the role for the entire run of the series. Crosby as Troi is an interesting idea, though with how disenfranchised she became of the show and the fact that the writers didn't include Troi in three consecutive episodes in S1, it's likely the character would've been killed off.

After that, I don't think moving Data would've been a good idea, he has plenty to do at Ops whereas if he became the 'Captain's Advisor' it'd take away from what Riker was meant to do. The empty chair does seem a bit of a waste though, so they'd need to put it to some use. Sit Wesley there as he studies all about being in Starfleet

 

[Lance]

After that, I don't think moving Data would've been a good idea, he has plenty to do at Ops whereas if he became the 'Captain's Advisor' it'd take away from what Riker was meant to do. The empty chair does seem a bit of a waste though, so they'd need to put it to some use. Sit Wesley there as he studies all about being in Starfleet

That idea seems all too frighteningly plausible.

 

[Orphalesion]

(Speaking of which, my own theory about Tasha as a character is that she was all set to be a major part of the series, but the addition of Worf to the cast at the final hour effectively unbalanced the ensemble, as much as the writers suddenly realized Worf was too good a character to not use, so they kept writing him into roles that Tasha should have by rights gotten -- the apex of this is "Hide & Q", where Tasha gets banished from Q's game within moments of the episode beginning, while Worf gets to remain on the planet fighting the vicious animal things. How much more effective it would have been to have shown them both working as a team to fight the good fight...?)

You are right Worf an Tasha seemed like characters that made each other redundant (Troi and Guinan were similar, although to a much less pronounced degree) often in scenes Word and Tasha would have the exact same reaction, the exact same comments and strategy and almost always next to each other.


On Troi: I rewatched Encoutner at Farpoint today. Her perm looks horrible, but is it just me or does Deanna seem more competent and involved in the pilot? She works the com on the Battle Bridge, she goes on away missions, actively helps solving the mystery of the space jellies and she chews out Q in the climax! Pilot Troi rocks!
How did we go from that....to Ms. "I sense the obvious" in Seasons 1 and 2?
Even her powers seemed keener and stronger in the pilot and her telepathic connection to Riker could have been useful in many episodes!

According to test screens between the pilot and the series proper, after deciding that Troi looked like a "cheerleader" or a "waitress" in her perm/headband/minisdress combination they at first tried to keep the minidress but give her the bun hairstyle before ditching the minidress as as well and replacing it with the horrible (and strangely unfinished) looking grey jumpsuit from the first season.

I think they should have gone the opposite route keeping the loose hair (perhaps without the headband?) but ditching the minidress for a standard uniform.

 

[Lance]

On Troi: I rewatched Encoutner at Farpoint today. Her perm looks horrible, but is it just me or does Deanna seem more competent and involved in the pilot? She works the com on the Battle Bridge, she goes on away missions, actively helps solving the mystery of the space jellies and she chews out Q in the climax! Pilot Troi rocks!
How did we go from that....to Ms. "I sense the obvious" in Seasons 1 and 2?
Even her powers seemed keener and stronger in the pilot and her telepathic connection to Riker could have been useful in many episodes!

Oh I agree. I think in the pilot they were writing her from the point-of-view of her being an outright telepath, whereas during the rest of season one they kind of watered that down to her being 'empathic' instead, and then they wrote the her-father-was-human excuse to explain it.

 

[Trevacious]

I think a lot of actors simply consider regular workouts to be part of their job and schedule them into their work weeks. If part of your job description is fitting into the same costume for seven years running, you probably just figure out what it'll take to maintain that weight and build it into your routine. And even though the shooting days on TV series are notoriously long, the fact that she was one of the less prominent members of a seven-person cast probably meant that Sirtis had a fair amount of down time in which to hit the Stairmaster.

And she got serious about it after S1, I recall reading in an interview somewhere, which showed in a firmer, leaner figure from then to series end.

I would've liked to have seen Macha Hernandez in action, I get the feeling Sirtis would've stuck with the role for the entire run of the series. Crosby as Troi is an interesting idea, though with how disenfranchised she became of the show and the fact that the writers didn't include Troi in three consecutive episodes in S1, it's likely the character would've been killed off.

Even as Tasha, I thought Crosby was actually better at the empathy stuff. I also liked the banter with Worf at the start of her final episode in S1 - "You bet on me?" Perhaps more of those little moments would have kept her around longer. Those character interactions are like food. Having her stand around for weeks with nothing to do but open hailing frequencies was just as hard to watch as it must have been frustrating to play.

 

[Lance]

I also liked the banter with Worf at the start of her final episode in S1 - "You bet on me?" Perhaps more of those little moments would have kept her around longer. Those character interactions are like food. Having her stand around for weeks with nothing to do but open hailing frequencies was just as hard to watch as it must have been frustrating to play.

Absolutely. They took the opportunity to retroactively add a little bit more of that when they went back in "All Good Things".

WORF (aside; to Tasha): "What is a 'Q'?"
TASHA (shrugs): "It's a letter of the alphabet as far as I know."
(Worf raises eyebrow.)