Deanna Looked Great in Her Uniform

[suarezguy]

In fact it seems as if no Starfleet member of Picard's crew but Troi had the liberty to do this (discounting Wesley but he wasn't in Starfleet "for real" yet). We never see Riker, Picard or any other officer on the bridge in casual clothing just because he/she doesn't feel like it that day - the only excuse seem to be having no time to dress up in an urgent situation, for example when being called up from the holodeck to the bridge immediately.

I'm pretty sure in-universe they aren't considered just casual clothes, Jellico (though maybe being diplomatic) even seems to consider/refer to it as a uniform, just not standard uniform.

There is precedent from the 23rd century for variants that do look less formal and more comfortable
https://scifanatic-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/images/kyle.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=87&pid=6489#top_display_media
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20110905061402&path-prefix=en

 

[Takeru]

Isn't Jellico telling Troi to wear the uniform, just a case of mister white patriarchal privilege telling a woman (and one from another culture, at that), that she can't express her individuality?

No, it's a commanding officer telling one of his senior officers to wear a standard uniform, which is not unreasonbale in the slightest. It has NOTHING to do with patriarchal privilege.

As others say, maybe Troi has professional reasons for her casual-wear.

What reasons would those be? Jellico specifically tells her he prefers formality on the bridge, so he's presumably ok with her wearing what she thinks works best in a counseling session.

Or, maybe, for all Jellico knows, she might have a cultural reason.

Irrelevant. Bajorans have a cultural reason for their earring but we've seen two examples on TNG and Voyager of bajorans being ordered to remove it, so starfleet doesn't seem to care about that, so starfleet is okay with that.

We know Betazoids have a culture of sexuality, and seem to have a matriarchal society to boot. My assumption has always been that her jumpsuits are Picard acknowledging and respecting that cultural background, allowing her to, as it were, be a Betazoid, rather than a Betazoid officer. It speaks to Picard's value system, his respect for her individuality and her cultural differences.

That doesn't make a lot of sense, why would he respect her individuality and cultural differences but not everybody elses? The entire point of using uniforms is to get rid of individuality on some level.
And it's not just in the military, I'm a nurse and at work I wear scrubs the hospital provides, they're dark blue with the logo on them and it doesn't matter how much I or anyone else like the color, fit or would like to express our individuality, it's not going to happen, we wear the uniform and that's it.

When Jellico tells her to put on a uniform, he doesn't cite a regulation. He doesn't say that she has to according to some Starfleet protocol.

There's no need to cite a regulation when she already knows it, so the fact that he doesn't cite section xy of the uniform code doesn't man there isn't one.

No, he says he "prefers a certain formality on the bridge". She's forced to wear a uniform because her male boss tells her that he doesn't respect her being able to express her individuality. It's framed that way, not Starfleet's rules, but Jellico's rules.

No, it's clearly framed as a starfleet rule unless you want to tell us that everybody else just happens to really like the uniform that they are not actually required to wear while on duty.

But at that moment, at that point in time, her freedoms as a Betazoid woman to wear whatever she feels comfortable wearing -- which no-one else has hithero ever questioned -- are being subjugated by a white, patriarchal figure who cares not a jot for respect, either culturally or to her as a woman, and basically telling her what to do. Not asking. Demanding.

This is ridiculous. Jellico's gender and race are completely irrelevant. He's the commanding officer of the ship, he gets to make demands and give orders, that's normal! Framing this as a white patriarchal figure telling a woman what to do and that that is somehow problematic is bonkers. He'a telling her to wear the same uniform everybody else on the ship (including himself!) wears for christ's sake

Am I wrong?

Yes you are, you are so off the mark I'm not 100% sure you are serious about this.

 

[Arpy]

Before the green dress, I thought her outfits were uniforms. In “The Naked Now,” Tasha is storming Troi’s closet saying how beautiful her civilian clothes are, and they’re nothing like her weekly outfit.

What are some of your favorite civilian clothes of the crew’s?

 

[Mojochi]

When Jellico tells her to put on a uniform, he doesn't cite a regulation. He doesn't say that she has to according to some Starfleet protocol. No, he says he "prefers a certain formality on the bridge"

In using the word formality, he is saying formal, as in form... as in universal form = uni-form. That she is IN their institution presents it as a prerequisite, without the need for him to frame it thusly constantly. Formal means regulation. In this instance it's synonymous.

Picard allowing for deviation, doesn't reverse that dynamic

 

[XCV330]

Before the green dress, I thought her outfits were uniforms. In “The Naked Now,” Tasha is storming Troi’s closet saying how beautiful her civilian clothes are, and they’re nothing like her weekly outfit.

What are some of your favorite civilian clothes of the crew’s?

Worf "I am not a merry man" as Will Scarlet.

ok forget that.
I liked all of the 21st century costumes from ST:FC

 

[JesterFace]

What if the clothing Deanna wears through the series aren't casual clothing but a uniform for a therapist? The dark red one and the grey one with purple collar almost look like Starfleet things.

Well, yeah, then there's Jellico saying "wear official stuff", but if you skip that, then the therapy uniform thing works.

 

[XCV330]

What if the clothing Deanna wears through the series aren't casual clothing but a uniform for a therapist? The dark red one and the grey one with purple collar almost look like Starfleet things.

Well, yeah, then there's Jellico saying "wear official stuff", but if you skip that, then the therapy uniform thing works.

I think if they HAD been official clothes, she could have written and strongly worded letter to Admiralty about Jellico being creepy, but that wasn't the case.

 

[Lance]

you are so off the mark I'm not 100% sure you are serious about this.

You are correct, I will admit I am deliberately attempting to play 'devil's advocate'.

It just seems like, the issue is looked at in such black and white terms, and everyone seems to consider Jellico's position 100% right. No-one ever attempts to question his motivations, on this point at least, because "woman wearing uniform" is automatically seen as a step up from the leotards. Nobody ever asks, why would someone want to wear an informal uniform? Starfleet is only mildly military. That was Gene Roddenberry's point. (I think it goes back to ST: Phase II, where the series bible specifically states that a variety of both formal and casual on-duty wear will be seen, and TMP which followed that directive with things like Kirk's "captain's t-shirt". Heck, Bones wears a t-shirt variant often in TOS, and Kirk walks around in that green wrap-around tunic thing that bares his chest to all and sundry.)

Deanna Troi consistently wears casual clothing for six years. She wears it because she wants to, or for reasons otherwise never explored, and no-one has any kind of problem with it. Jellico comes in and demands it change. That may be his prerogative as captain. But it doesn't make it any less of a dick move. (If I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'll admit my view skews towards him, but mainly from the motivation that he wants to come at the Cardassians from a position of strength, and feels that "a certain formality on the bridge" projects that. )

 

[Arpy]

I don’t consider Jellico’s position 100% right. The guy was a tool. The line was to support that. We all lucked out that that moment gave us Standard Uniform Deanna (which wasn’t ubiquitous thereafter), but that it took that is more an indictment of misogynist Hollywood than an apologia for Jellico.

The position he took wasn’t one of coming at the Cardassians from a position of strength (besides, what’s stronger than getting your ass kicked by someone else in pretty casual-wear), but a position of not being able to permit self-expression. He liked controlling others, and he couldn’t do his job without everyone bowing to his individual preferences.

 

[J.T.B.]

but what i did find was that in the eariest days of those services, US navy surgeons did not get a uniform, or rather not a military uniform. Officers dressed in blue and surgeons on board were expected to wear something green. They would have supplied their own clothing. So there is precedent of caregivers specifically NOT being in uniform, even though the idea was abandoned historically about as quickly as it was on screen.

It was a uniform and had gold navy buttons, but yes it was obviously intended to look quite different from the other officers. It lasted about five years, so it was probably not well-regarded within the service. At that time, surgeons, pursers and chaplains were considered basically civilians who happened to work for the navy, though they were given officer status aboard ship. In the Royal Navy of the same period they wore plain blue coats with navy buttons.

But speaking of chaplains... It was a long time before they were given the same uniforms as other officers. Partly because clerical dress codes were already firmly established, but partly also because they were supposed to be somewhat outside the official hierarchy. General Pershing ordered chaplains of the American Expeditionary Force to stop wearing rank insignia in WW1, because he thought it made them more approachable for enlisted men. US Navy chaplains did not wear the same uniforms as other officers till the end of WW1. Royal Navy chaplains to this day do not have ranks like other officers.

There are other situations when uniforms are not worn by active-duty personnel. Military personnel who are law enforcement investigators often wear civilian clothes as they perform their duty, or if in a combat area wear uniforms with no rank insignia. Their actual grade is sort of "set aside" for those assignments, so there's no question of someone of a higher grade interfering with an investigation.

Officers who are detailed to certain government agencies and offices wear civilian clothes like the other staff they work with. This came up recently with Alexander Vindman. Before WW2, it was the rule that officers on duty at the War and Navy Departments in DC wore civilian clothes. That all changed in December 1941. Chester Nimitz's biography states that he was one of the few admirals in Washington who had a uniform ready to wear to work that first day because he had some official duties at Arlington cemetery funerals. Below are two four-star admirals, one two-star admiral and the Secretary of the Navy at the change of command for the US Chief of Naval Operations in 1939:

https://www.history.navy.mil/conten...harold-r--stark--usn--second-from-right-.html


So I have no problem with the idea that the counselor's uniform could be optional. Perhaps some captains feel that this facilitates their interaction with crew members on all levels. But that could be completely at the captain's discretion.

When Jellico tells her to put on a uniform, he doesn't cite a regulation. He doesn't say that she has to according to some Starfleet protocol.

There is no way it can't be according to regulation. One of the most basic funtions of military uniforms is to show who has legal authority over whom. She wears a uniform with rank insignia, if it's not regulation she would be impersonating a Starfleet lieutenant-commander. If Jellico was giving her an illegal order, I'm sure it would have been mentioned.

But at that moment, at that point in time, her freedoms as a Betazoid woman to wear whatever she feels comfortable wearing -- which no-one else has hithero ever questioned -- are being subjugated by a white, patriarchal figure who cares not a jot for respect, either culturally or to her as a woman, and basically telling her what to do. Not asking. Demanding.

"Telling her what to do" is also known as "giving orders," which is what captains do to lieutenant commanders aboard their ships.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well, it stands to reason that women want to wear dreary and dull stuff, that they abhore sexy.. and feminism dictates that so..
But .. thats complete horse crap..
To me, let a woman wear whatever they want to wear.. its up to them..
But to Troi.
I've always seen that she had "Special Dispensation" to wear a more casual "uniform" because of her counseling duties. However, once she passed her bridge exam, she became a bridge officer, so she should be in a regular officer uniform when on duty on the bridge, now if she's not on bridge duty, then she can be in her casual uniform..
Probably up to her, but T'pol in a catsuit when she was enlisted in Starfleet was a bit much.. she should have been in a regular uniform..

 

[urbandefault]

See, what I'm about to say may be controversial. Or it may make perfect sense.

I hope it's the latter.

So.

Isn't Jellico telling Troi to wear the uniform, just a case of mister white patriarchal privilege telling a woman (and one from another culture, at that), that she can't express her individuality?

Most people seem to look at it from the point of view of: catsuit = sexism, sexism = bad, so Troi in uniform = positive.

But...

As others say, maybe Troi has professional reasons for her casual-wear.

Or, maybe, for all Jellico knows, she might have a cultural reason.

She changes into the leotards almost immediately after the Enterprise's first mission is complete, presumably wearing a uniform until she understood Picard was comfortable with her wearing casual clothing, but she keeps those types of clothes more or less all the way through to Season 6.

We know Betazoids have a culture of sexuality, and seem to have a matriarchal society to boot. My assumption has always been that her jumpsuits are Picard acknowledging and respecting that cultural background, allowing her to, as it were, be a Betazoid, rather than a Betazoid officer. It speaks to Picard's value system, his respect for her individuality and her cultural differences.

The only time we see her in a uniform between the pilot episode and season 6, is in Riker's illusionary "future" in the episode Future Imperfect. At all other times, we see her in varying types of casual dress.

When Jellico tells her to put on a uniform, he doesn't cite a regulation. He doesn't say that she has to according to some Starfleet protocol. No, he says he "prefers a certain formality on the bridge". She's forced to wear a uniform because her male boss tells her that he doesn't respect her being able to express her individuality. It's framed that way, not Starfleet's rules, but Jellico's rules. And, yes, we can see her choosing to subsequently continue variating the jumpsuits and uniform as her expressing some preference (or comfortability?) in wanting to wear it.

But at that moment, at that point in time, her freedoms as a Betazoid woman to wear whatever she feels comfortable wearing -- which no-one else has hithero ever questioned -- are being subjugated by a white, patriarchal figure who cares not a jot for respect, either culturally or to her as a woman, and basically telling her what to do. Not asking. Demanding.

I find that uncomfortable.

Maybe other's don't?

Am I wrong?

He's the captain. Gender or skin color makes no difference. If the captain requires officers to be in uniform when on duty, officers will be in uniform when on duty. No questions, no comments. Don't like it, transfer or resign.

Picard let people make themselves comfortable. Jellico didn't. That's life.

ETA: And if the captain wants 4 shifts, or 6 shifts, or 9 shifts every third Wednesday, that's what will happen. It's his ship to run as he sees fit, within Starfleet regulations.

 

[Mojochi]

It just seems like, the issue is looked at in such black and white terms, and everyone seems to consider Jellico's position 100% right. No-one ever attempts to question his motivations, on this point at least, because "woman wearing uniform" is automatically seen as a step up from the leotards. Nobody ever asks, why would someone want to wear an informal uniform? Starfleet is only mildly military. That was Gene Roddenberry's point. (I think it goes back to ST: Phase II, where the series bible specifically states that a variety of both formal and casual on-duty wear will be seen, and TMP which followed that directive with things like Kirk's "captain's t-shirt". Heck, Bones wears a t-shirt variant often in TOS, and Kirk walks around in that green wrap-around tunic thing that bares his chest to all and sundry.

There's really no reason TO question his motives. It's the posture of his rightful command, which especially in this case is engaged in hotly active negotiations, but if we want to entertain some motivation, she's taking an active role on his command team, & any sign of dissonance, like someone showing up with pretty pink & purple leotards on, could be easily seen as weakness. This particular negotiation involves adversaries that will exploit every available weak spot, and showing that you don't even represent a visual unified front, is just asking for these people to lose respect for you. I could easily see Lemec smirking at her & saying "And who do you work for again? I forget?"

 

[Falconer]

I think probably it was meant to be a uniform.

Maybe a “Class B” uniform or whatever, but it has the insignia, and it looks a lot like the TOS uniform from the waist up. I think in both TOS and TNG they were more interested in whether their actresses looked good than in verisimilitude. This affected both shape and color of costumes (Ann Mulhall “should” have been in blue).

 

[Arpy]

I could easily see Lemec smirking at her & saying "And who do you work for again? I forget?"

“Dementia is a condition we are able to treat these days, Gul Lemec.” They’re Federation. They don’t have indulge the prejudices of the Cardassians.

The characters don’t really exist, and all decisions were made for completely different reasons than the ones we’re conjuring here.

Let’s focus on the positive in this thread, yeah?

 

[thribs]

She’s at her best in season 2 IMO.

 

[at Quark's]

Picard let people make themselves comfortable. Jellico didn't. That's life.

Well, Picard was a captain of peace, exploration and diplomacy. Jellico was a captain apparently used more to dealing with conflict situations (I don't mean to say that he was belligerent or hostile). That may make a difference, too.

For example, had Deanna been shown in the alternate timeline of Yesterday's Enterprise I wouldn't have been too surprised if she had worn a standard uniform there.

 

[Mojochi]

“Dementia is a condition we are able to treat these days, Gul Lemec.” They’re Federation. They don’t have indulge the prejudices of the Cardassians.

The characters don’t really exist, and all decisions were made for completely different reasons than the ones we’re conjuring here.

Let’s focus on the positive in this thread, yeah?

I was just sort of playing along with @Lance's Devil's advocate. I'm not to my reckoning being negative here. The question was posed why he prefers uniformity, which honestly doesn't really factor, as he's the captain and has the say so, but as an exercise, I thought I'd offer a take, that uniformity shows strength, & without it, others might lean toward less respect, which is an important factor in a negotiation.

Insulting the guy at the other end of the table, by calling him demented, hardly wins back that advantage IMHO

Besides, there isn't a whole lot about this thread that is positive, tbh. It's basis is defining a character wearing their uniform by how good it looks on her. Within that, I'm just trying to find a point or 2 that might be an interesting take

Hopefully I'm not belaboring anything too much as to be a nuisance or inappropriate

 

[Mojochi]

I think probably it was meant to be a uniform.

Maybe a “Class B” uniform or whatever, but it has the insignia, and it looks a lot like the TOS uniform from the waist up. I think in both TOS and TNG they were more interested in whether their actresses looked good than in verisimilitude. This affected both shape and color of costumes (Ann Mulhall “should” have been in blue).

When you consider the fact that it was work related clothing in the show, & especially the alternate maroon one she often wore, & then compare that to the jacketless Ensign Ro uniform, then yes, I'd think they were all some sort of fatigues type thing maybe. A casual uniform, instead of the formal recognized one.

Also notice how Pulaski exclusively wore what almost passed for a dress uniform, with the extended jacket. A lot of individual leeway under Picard, which seemed to fit well with his command & charter

 

[SolarisOne]

Isn't Jellico telling Troi to wear the uniform, just a case of mister white patriarchal privilege telling a woman (and one from another culture, at that), that she can't express her individuality?

She's an officer on a ship. She gets to express her individuality on shore leave.