Deanna driving the ship...
- Thread starter Lance
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The fact that the helm was knocked offline has been mentioned a couple of times already in this thread, but it doesn't really matter since it was still a woman at the wheel.
The fact that the helm was knocked offline has been mentioned a couple of times already in this thread, but it doesn't really matter since it was still a woman at the wheel.
Look at the pictures I posted again. She still had to deliberately maneuver the saucer between the drive and the planet -before- she lost helm controls. Space is three dimensional. She could have turned the other direction. Heck she probably would've been better off just going straight. She didn't lose helm controls until that shockwave was already pushing them towards the planet. So no, I can't give her a pass on that one.
In the actual movie, though, the saucer is moving cleanly away until the shockwave hits it and sends it flying towards Veridian III (the saucer is actually seen being knocked nose down). With the helm dead, there's nothing anyone sitting at the helm could have done to prevent the ship from crashing.
After the shockwave hit? No. It's no secret that exploding things create shockwaves. We'd already seen that once in this movie alone up to this point. It wasn't a directional or curved shockwave or anything weird like that, but a symmetrical expanding sphere.
The only way that expanding sphere shock wave would push them into the planet is if the saucer was between the planet and the drive. The helm didn't die until -after- it hit. So while they were separating Troi could have very easily navigated so the drive section, which everyone knew was going to explode, was between the planet and the saucer. Even as they separated Troi was turning, indicating she had full helm control at the time. A turn in the opposite direction would've kept the saucer a going concern.
Yes. That's exactly what happened. The shockwave sent the saucer flying towards Veridian III and knocked the helm offline, so there was nothing Troi or anyone else could have done.
Troi had quite a few seconds between the separation and the explosion. Helm control was fully operational then as witnessed by the scene where the saucer is turning away from the drive section. The only way that explosion could knock them into Veridian III is if she deliberately positioned them between the drive and the planet. Space is three dimensional, she could have gone any number of other ways and the shock wave would've only pushed them further away from the planet.
Nah, that's just trying real hard to blame Troi for something that couldn't have been stopped by anyone.
Well, as already mentioned, Troi did pass the bridge officer exam. Helm control may have been (if not probably was) part of the exam. With everyone else on the bridge busy, Troi was simply the nearest person who could fly the ship who wasn't.
Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The goal posts called - they're getting dizzy from being continually moved.
After all we've
a) proved to you that Troi was qualified to helm the saucer section yet you maintain that she merely a shrink
b) that damage the ship combined with the shockwave meant that they were in trouble no matter what happened you maintain she was incapable to performing the job.
Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The goal posts called - they're getting dizzy from being continually moved.
After all we've
a) proved to you that Troi was qualified to helm the saucer section yet you maintain that she merely a shrink
b) that damage the ship combined with the shockwave meant that they were in trouble no matter what happened you maintain she was incapable to performing the job.
She was never shown flying the ship during her bridge qualifications. Regardless it's irrelevant, I've explained several times that space is three dimensional, that the saucer was responding to helm commands before the shockwave hit, and that Troi could've maneuvered away from it. The only way the shock wave could have knocked the saucer into the planet is if it was between the planet and the stardrive. So that turn Troi made as they separated was turning the ship towards the planet. Which is foolish even when things are going just fine.
If you want to play apologist for her, feel free. She really should've and could have saved the saucer. Yes she only had a few seconds to maneuver... that's why you usually employ a full time pilot instead of at best(it's never proven she sat at the helm before that point) a part time one. Piloting requires quick reflexes, which she never really demonstrated at all.
The only real problem was when Riker didn't order to fire everything at the Bird of prey.
I think your response to the illogic of the destruction of the Enterprise is based on the fact it was not necessary for it to be destroyed at all, just that the "writers" felt the pschopathic need to murder her on the big screen so it's a big deal. 
Additionally, the circumstance of the destruction was shoddily created.
And the fact they showed the explosion of the stardrive section in the tv spot didn't help. They just used Troi as a Jar Jar.
Additionally, the circumstance of the destruction was shoddily created.And the fact they showed the explosion of the stardrive section in the tv spot didn't help. They just used Troi as a Jar Jar.
The only real problem was when Riker didn't order to fire everything at the Bird of prey.
He probably did. After all, the ship did fire single phaser beams, which is the very definition of "everything" from the TV show (that single occasion in "BoBW" with the impossible pylon beams notwithstanding).
The plot isn't unpalatable in that sense at all. Dialogue as such covers all the plot holes. Shields are useless because the man operating them has been co-opted. Klingon shields in turn are holding in a twist that surprises even the Klingons themselves - but the audience shouldn't be surprised, as the tech wizard Soran had previously promised to do something about the fact that the villains were ridiculously outgunned. And yet the E-D fights back, constantly firing weapons, as we can hear from the background noises.
It's the visual presentation that is lamentably lacking: we see just a small fraction of the battle, omitting all those moments the heroes are firing back. And we never get the scene that's probably playing out several times as the battle proceeds: Riker orders shields adjusted some more, LaForge duly adjusts them, and the Durases watch and learn and do their own adjusting.
A "plausibly" superior enemy would have been no fun. The movie is about a bitter old man trying to change the unfair universe to his liking, and another opting not to; it's only fitting that the climax features a space battle between our heroes and a tiny, rusty has-been of a starship, and a wheezing and coughing fistfight between said two old men - both of which the hero side actually loses hands down.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, I expect they used all their budget on important plot elements like a wooden sailing ship, and Picard's herd of children that they couldn't afford a few more effects beyond that one phaser shot.
I'd have preferred if the E-D went down, fighting the heroic battle myself. Managing to win the fight despite the enemy's advantage due to superior firepower. Instead we just got a silly technobabble win.
I'd have preferred if the E-D went down, fighting the heroic battle myself. Managing to win the fight despite the enemy's advantage due to superior firepower. Instead we just got a silly technobabble win.
It sort of counts as a "superior firepower win" that the E-D survived long enough to be able to technobabble the Klingons out of the game...
(And personally, I found the sailing ship a much more interesting element of the movie than the starships. Except for the E-B... Despite so many parameters being forced upon the redesigners and the people who shot the scenes, she looked positively regal.)
Timo Saloniemi
(And personally, I found the sailing ship a much more interesting element of the movie than the starships. Except for the E-B... Despite so many parameters being forced upon the redesigners and the people who shot the scenes, she looked positively regal.)
Timo Saloniemi
Troi-hater.Really the blame to me falls on Riker who decided it was a great idea to have the therapist fly the ship.
The goal posts called - they're getting dizzy from being continually moved.
After all we've
a) proved to you that Troi was qualified to helm the saucer section yet you maintain that she merely a shrink
b) that damage the ship combined with the shockwave meant that they were in trouble no matter what happened you maintain she was incapable to performing the job.
She was never shown flying the ship during her bridge qualifications. Regardless it's irrelevant, I've explained several times that space is three dimensional, that the saucer was responding to helm commands before the shockwave hit, and that Troi could've maneuvered away from it. The only way the shock wave could have knocked the saucer into the planet is if it was between the planet and the stardrive. So that turn Troi made as they separated was turning the ship towards the planet. Which is foolish even when things are going just fine.
If you want to play apologist for her, feel free. She really should've and could have saved the saucer. Yes she only had a few seconds to maneuver... that's why you usually employ a full time pilot instead of at best(it's never proven she sat at the helm before that point) a part time one. Piloting requires quick reflexes, which she never really demonstrated at all.
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