Spoilers DC's Legends of Tomorrow - Season 3

[Christopher]

I think the purpose was getting as much mileage out of Victor Garber before he leaves.

Yeah, but it's getting implausibly coincidental. First, Julius Caesar is displaced to where Mick Rory happens to be. Then, Kuasa is sent to kill someone who has a totem connected to Amaya's. Then a baby Dominator is displaced to Ray Palmer's hometown. And now Mallus and Eleanor Darhk work with Martin Stein's ancestor. That's four out of five anachronisms so far that have happened to overlap with the Legends' lives. Is Mallus doing this on purpose? Is it some side effect of the fact that the Legends caused the anachronisms in the first place by "breaking time?" Or is it just lazy writing?

 

[dahj]

Or is it just lazy writing?

I wouldn't call it lazy writing, I'd say "deliberately ridiculous" would fit the bill more.
Sure it would have made more sense if it was some random guest star, but why not an evil moustache twirling Stein?

 

[Christopher]

Sure it would have made more sense if it was some random guest star, but why not an evil moustache twirling Stein?

Because "time travelers meet their ancestors who look and sound exactly like them" is one of the hoariest, silliest screen cliches in the book. Back to the Future could get away with it because it was so good otherwise, but that actually was criticized as one of its imperfections, especially in the third movie where Marty's ancestor's wife miraculously looked exactly like Marty's mother even though there was no reason for those two women to be biologically related.

Granted, this show has never shied away from the silly. But it usually serves a purpose. When Henry Stein showed up, I expected it to set up some plot point where Martin had to impersonate his ancestor. But it never actually served any purpose at all. I'm not clear on why the character was even in the episode. What did he do that Eleanor couldn't have done? It was just a distraction. So why bother?

 

[dahj]

especially in the third movie where Marty's ancestor's wife miraculously looked exactly like Marty's mother even though there was no reason for those two women to be biologically related.

So either McFly men have a type, or Marty's gene pool is smaller than he thought...

I'm not clear on why the character was even in the episode.

I think Stein actually commented how improbable it is in the episode, so they may explain it later, but even if they don't sometimes a non sequitur is just a non sequitur, and I'm fine with that, especially on this show.

 

[Phoenix219]

Yeah, but it's getting implausibly coincidental. First, Julius Caesar is displaced to where Mick Rory happens to be. Then, Kuasa is sent to kill someone who has a totem connected to Amaya's. Then a baby Dominator is displaced to Ray Palmer's hometown. And now Mallus and Eleanor Darhk work with Martin Stein's ancestor. That's four out of five anachronisms so far that have happened to overlap with the Legends' lives. Is Mallus doing this on purpose? Is it some side effect of the fact that the Legends caused the anachronisms in the first place by "breaking time?" Or is it just lazy writing?

I actually assumed that Rip had a more involved manipulation going on, and that Caesar showing up was part of getting that rolling, but I don't think they were that smart..... leaving it at the normal tv level of "coincidental timing" which is a problem for most shows.

 

[Phoenix219]

And then you realize she got prego by Lucifier and had his son Jack whom is a Nephilim and helping Sam an Dean. She does get around, just when you thought she died giving birth when it was she just went into the past.

Hrmm. Supernatural now has alternate universes and time travel anyways, and we just saw Harold Finch's doppelganger on Arrow.....how big a multiverse is it, really?

I would have killed to see Constantine on SN at some point. With Scooby Doo crossing over soon, ya never know?

 

[Christopher]

Hrmm. Supernatural now has alternate universes and time travel anyways, and we just saw Harold Finch's doppelganger on Arrow.....how big a multiverse is it, really?

I watched last week's Arrow again this morning, and Michael Emerson really is playing this character just like Finch, albeit slightly more malevolent. So I wonder if the "Finch's doppelganger" thing is actually the unspoken intent rather than just a fan in-joke. After all, Person of Interest was a Warner Bros. show...

Not that I'd really want that, though. PoI was set in a much more grounded, less fanciful reality than the Arrowverse. It wouldn't really fit in the same multiverse.

I would have killed to see Constantine on SN at some point. With Scooby Doo crossing over soon, ya never know?

I often think it'd be fun to see Constantine do some sort of universe-hopping spell and show up on FOX's Lucifer.

And now you have me wanting a Constantine/Scooby-Doo team-up.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Because "time travelers meet their ancestors who look and sound exactly like them" is one of the hoariest, silliest screen cliches in the book. Back to the Future could get away with it because it was so good otherwise, but that actually was criticized as one of its imperfections, especially in the third movie where Marty's ancestor's wife miraculously looked exactly like Marty's mother even though there was no reason for those two women to be biologically related.

Granted, this show has never shied away from the silly. But it usually serves a purpose. When Henry Stein showed up, I expected it to set up some plot point where Martin had to impersonate his ancestor. But it never actually served any purpose at all. I'm not clear on why the character was even in the episode. What did he do that Eleanor couldn't have done? It was just a distraction. So why bother?

From what I've read online Victor Garber is known for having played in the stage production of Sweeney Todd which is similar in setting and material to some of what was going down in the episode. Also, Dominic Purcell played Dracula in the Blade Trinity movie. Maybe a bit of shaky reasoning but we've seen LoT go there referencing Garber's role in Titanic so maybe not out of the question? I don't know, either way just a bit of fun as were the BTTF movies.

 

[Phoenix219]

I watched last week's Arrow again this morning, and Michael Emerson really is playing this character just like Finch, albeit slightly more malevolent. So I wonder if the "Finch's doppelganger" thing is actually the unspoken intent rather than just a fan in-joke. After all, Person of Interest was a Warner Bros. show...

Not that I'd really want that, though. PoI was set in a much more grounded, less fanciful reality than the Arrowverse. It wouldn't really fit in the same multiverse.

Head canon being what it is, and all.....


In fact, I at one point years ago head an entire timeline laid out that crossed Heroes, Fringe and X Files into a coherent storyline of government experimentation and formulas on special people, including a family connection between Bobby Bishop (Heroes) and Robert Bishop (Fringe). I have no idea where my notes or posts might be, and I don't remember the details anymore. Oh well.



I often think it'd be fun to see Constantine do some sort of universe-hopping spell and show up on FOX's Lucifer.

And now you have me wanting a Constantine/Scooby-Doo team-up.

The reverse may be true for me - I started watching POI when it first premiered, which was before the current crop of super hero shows existed. It seemed to me, to to have a sort of Batman-with-no-superheroics thing going for it. The genius billionaire split from the tormented vigilante into two people and a partnership. John had a ton of badass, Bat-like moments of perfection, and was assembling quite a rogues gallery and set of odd allies for awhile. For sure, his relationship with the police during the early seasons, the small amount of people who knew his secret identity, the recurring characters that helped him along the way, including a doctor and a mob boss. The later seasons took all of this in a totally different direciton, of course, but I always saw POI at heart as a comic book style show. I could totally see both it and Fringe coexisting in this current multiverse (which should include Smallville and Flash '90 IMO), with Supernatural, Heroes and X Files as spiritual companions, at the very least.

 

[Christopher]

From what I've read online Victor Garber is known for having played in the stage production of Sweeney Todd which is similar in setting and material to some of what was going down in the episode.

I don't buy it. Garber's role in the original Broadway cast of Sweeney Todd in 1979-80 (when Garber was 30) was Anthony Hope, the young, idealistic romantic lead (played in the 2007 Tim Burton film by Jamie Campbell Bower). His character here couldn't have been more different. Henry Stein didn't bear any particular resemblance to any specific character in Sweeney Todd, in fact. So I don't see how it could be an homage.

Also, Dominic Purcell played Dracula in the Blade Trinity movie.

Ah, that explains that part. They're really piling on the in-jokes with him lately -- it was a Prison Break nod a couple of weeks ago. Is he going to be listed as a John Doe sometime?

The reverse may be true for me - I started watching POI when it first premiered, which was before the current crop of super hero shows existed. It seemed to me, to to have a sort of Batman-with-no-superheroics thing going for it.... The later seasons took all of this in a totally different direciton, of course, but I always saw POI at heart as a comic book style show.

Sure, but not a fantasy show. It didn't have superpowers and magic and time travel, just cutting-edge technology that was quite close to reality, and often predictive of things that actually came to pass in real life. And its portrayal of computer technology, while no doubt taking some liberties, was a lot more plausible than Arrow's "The whole Internet can be blown up from one magic server vault" depiction. It's not a question of genre, it's a question of credibility. Some superhero shows are a lot more fanciful than others.

 

[Gaith]

"Return of the Mack"...

I don't understand what the title means. I gather it's a song allusion, but I don't know the song, so I have no idea what it has to do with the episode. Unless the "return" part has something to do with Darhk's return.

Well, "Return of the Mack" reminds one of "Mack the Knife", which has vague thematic ties to Jack the Ripper, who was alluded to in the episode's early going?

 

[Commander Richard]

"Helen Hunt"...

Maybe they can brush off that Arrow spinoff that was called Amazon.

 

[Tuskin38]

I wasn’t expecting Themyscira

 

[Dick Whitman]

Yes, that was surprise! The Flash has mentioned Atlantis being on Earth 2. But that was right on Earth 1. A minor Bruce Wayne reference on Arrow could be argued either that it's a Bruce who is Batman or maybe not. But an island of Amazons which is known by someone from future is not a little reference.

 

[Christopher]

I love the vintage Warner Bros. title graphics. And I love it that the story ended up revolving more around Hedy Lamarr than Helen of Troy.

I don't love the tendency to portray Helen as a Nordic blonde rather than a more Mediterranean type, but I guess that was necessary for the idea of her as a Hollywood icon to work.

Body-switch episodes are fun for the opportunity to see how well the actors play each other. I think Franz Drameh did a better job imitating Victor Garber than the reverse, at least after some initial iffiness.

Themyscira exists on Earth-1!!!! And it looked familiar, that coastline and cliff. I wonder, did they actually use a digital model from the Wonder Woman movie?

And Ray finally recognized Kuasa from her name. Which still doesn't explain why he didn't recognize her when they met face-to-face before. Maybe he's just not good with faces?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

It's HEDLEY!!!!

 

[Guy Gardener]

So the Republicans succeeded in ridding the world of homosexuality?

Is that why Isis kinda "forgot" that Themescyra is the home to thousands of immortal Superman level superhuman lesbians, who probably have nukes, if we believe some of the canon which suggests that the Amazons licked super-science centuries ago?

Depositing Helen there, could leave the planet a radioactive wasteland 1252 years before the birth of Christ.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The opening scene made me wonder if Yakko, Wakko and Dot were home.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Has Helen Hunt (from Mad About You) commented on the episode?

Um? Depending on how the Amazons are Immortal, if it's environmental, there's a small chance that Helen of Troy could "catch" their immortality, and resume her movie career, after a tight Grecian holiday.

 

[Christopher]

It struck me overnight that we had to wait until Franz Drameh was playing Stein before we got an episode that centered on Stein. Between that and all the scenes in recent episodes where characters have mentioned Stein's actions or whereabouts without him actually being present (e.g. Gideon reporting that Stein has taken Amaya to the medical bay, but Stein not being there in the subsequent medical bay scene), I wonder if Victor Garber is having health issues, or maybe just availability issues, that limit his screen time, leading to the decision to write him out of the show.

By the way, I was curious, so I did some research into the question of what Helen of Troy would really have looked like if she'd been a Spartan queen whose beauty was legendary by the standards of the culture and era. Turns out she would've probably been a full-figured redhead, would've had her head mostly shaved and what remained of it styled into snakelike patterns, would've had her eyes heavily kohled and her cheeks tattooed with red sunbursts, might have painted her face with toxic white lead, and would've left her breasts bare or covered in diaphanous gauze. I'm down with that last part, at least. (Although the myth says she eased Menelaus's wrath after the end of the war by baring her breasts to him, since Greek myths were written on about the same level of gender politics as an '80s action movie. That suggests they weren't routinely visible.)