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Spoilers DC's Legends of Tomorrow - Season 1

The final episode for season one, s01e16, airs on May 19th.

3 more weeks. :)

Really?! I thought this was the finale. Felt like one, too. So, uhm, ... yay, I guess?! I still approve of the Atom vs. the Leviathan fight.

Would have been even more awesome if Ray had done the Ultraman pose:
VZtYZvN.jpg
 
I will never, ever agree that an inability to kill makes a character terrible. Killing, for most people, is a very difficult thing to do. Turning someone into a killer, if they aren't a psychopath to begin with, requires breaking down a lot of the natural inhibitions against it that any decent human being would possess. Kendra was a barista six months ago. Even in her past lives, apparently, she relied mostly on Carter to defend her, in keeping with the cultural values of the times. She's had some combat training and experience, she's participated in battles where people died, but deliberately killing someone with premeditation is not something that should realistically be portrayed as easy for her, no matter what's objectively at stake.

That's a very solid and reasonable argument. Except for the fact that she didn't seem to be experiencing any such mental difficulties whatsoever. She only hesitated after they threw Carter's memories on the fire.

Not to mention that, if I understand correctly, she would've been condemning Carter not only to losing his memories, but to never again being reincarnated. After 4000 years as his soulmate, how could she be expected to just coldly set that aside? How could she even be human if that were easy for her?

I'm not sure how that follows. Worst case scenario I can see is Carter continues to live multiple lives, but never remembers his past lives anymore. Which isn't nothing, but, hey, it's still a choice between being with someone and having both of you be brutally murdered on a regular basis or not being with someone and them at least being able to live a normal life.

Of course, anyone can make the wrong decision in the heat of the moment, no matter how obvious it should be. But given time to cool down and think logically, there really shouldn't be any choice to be made here at all.

That's easy to say. You go march into a war zone and see how easy it actually is to do if you haven't been trained. You can debate the objective logic of it all you want, but that doesn't mean you could just turn off your humanity and emotion if you actually had to do it.

Well, that's obviously the second biggest issue with this main story arc: from the first episode, their objective has been to kill Savage. From the second episode they've known for a fact that Kendra is the only person physically capable of killing Savage. Kendra, who was a barista six months ago. Yet we've seen her train like two or three times in that entire run, and even then only physically, only against one specific person. No one really even confronted her about whether she could kill a person at all until the 11th hour. Every single tactic and sneaky attempt to uncover Savage's location has been utterly ridiculous because they never bothered to prepare the weapon (Kendra) that has to be used to kill him.

For the record, while the logic issues of this show are blatantly ridiculous, that was actually a pretty fun episode in terms of entertainment value. Giant robot fight is easily the highlight of the show, and one of the highlights of the entire Berlanti universe. Although, I agree the catching of the waverider was yet again built on contrived and illogical actions/choices...
 
I thought that turning Savage's daughter against him came way too quickly and easily...that would have worked better if they'd set her up sooner and given that development a few episodes to breathe.
 
That's a very solid and reasonable argument. Except for the fact that she didn't seem to be experiencing any such mental difficulties whatsoever.
...
Well, that's obviously the second biggest issue with this main story arc: from the first episode, their objective has been to kill Savage. From the second episode they've known for a fact that Kendra is the only person physically capable of killing Savage. Kendra, who was a barista six months ago. Yet we've seen her train like two or three times in that entire run, and even then only physically, only against one specific person. No one really even confronted her about whether she could kill a person at all until the 11th hour.

But that's the thing. Thinking about killing someone, planning to do it, is very different from actually reaching the moment when you have to do it. Surely you've seen hundreds of works of fiction where a protagonist has planned for a long time to kill someone, prepared for it, trained for it, hunted them down, and then realized at the last moment that they couldn't do it. It's hardly an uncommon character arc. And there's real-life precedent for it too. In wars where the majority of soldiers are drafted rather than career military, it's been found that the majority of them deliberately shoot to miss the enemy. They're drafted to kill, trained to kill, judged ready to be sent into the fight, but they still have a change of heart and can't go through with it. And Kendra was pretty much drafted into this fight.

In any case, I stand by my point. Compassion and love may not necessarily be the best option in some situations, but I will never agree that they should be dismissed as stupid. Violence is stupid. Hate is stupid. Any mindless force of nature can kill. The ability to kill doesn't make you smart or superior -- it just makes you on a par with a falling rock or a virus. Love and compassion are constructive forces, forces that counter entropy and promote growth. They're humanity's dominant survival traits, the abilities that enabled us to work together, pool our resources, and create civilization. There may be circumstances where they need to be set aside temporarily, but in the long run they are far stronger, smarter, and more important than hate or violence or "toughness."
 
Kendra was leveraged by a surprise hostage.

Before that, she was completely DTK.

Keyser Soze.

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Vandal would have killed his daughter to win. Vandal would have killed his daughter to keep the status quo. Vandal would have even killed his daughter to lose slightly slower.

Meanwhile Kendra is too much of a wussy to leave her exhusband brainwashed for an unspecified duration of time. Hell, right now, Hawkgirl has to kill for Vandal Savage. She has to turn on her team, and kill them all, including Ray Palmer, or Vandal Savage will never consider maybe at some point thinking about reversing the Manturian job he did on Carter, and even after that, Savage hasn't promised to let the Hawks live. His immortality is dependant on killing this two people, unless it isn't. What exactly is the "bargain" Kendra thinks that she is making with the absolute ruler of the Earth?

She didn't make a deal, and Vandal Savage didn't promise to do anything, and frankly the future tech in the Waverider, if it is thousands of years ahead of this time period, should be able to easily reverse any brainwashing done by 22nd century psychologists, even if Gideon has to remove Carter's brain and grow a new one using the template "she" has on file from the pilot.
 
But that's the thing. Thinking about killing someone, planning to do it, is very different from actually reaching the moment when you have to do it. Surely you've seen hundreds of works of fiction where a protagonist has planned for a long time to kill someone, prepared for it, trained for it, hunted them down, and then realized at the last moment that they couldn't do it. It's hardly an uncommon character arc. And there's real-life precedent for it too. In wars where the majority of soldiers are drafted rather than career military, it's been found that the majority of them deliberately shoot to miss the enemy. They're drafted to kill, trained to kill, judged ready to be sent into the fight, but they still have a change of heart and can't go through with it. And Kendra was pretty much drafted into this fight.

In any case, I stand by my point. Compassion and love may not necessarily be the best option in some situations, but I will never agree that they should be dismissed as stupid. Violence is stupid. Hate is stupid. Any mindless force of nature can kill. The ability to kill doesn't make you smart or superior -- it just makes you on a par with a falling rock or a virus. Love and compassion are constructive forces, forces that counter entropy and promote growth. They're humanity's dominant survival traits, the abilities that enabled us to work together, pool our resources, and create civilization. There may be circumstances where they need to be set aside temporarily, but in the long run they are far stronger, smarter, and more important than hate or violence or "toughness."

Oh, I agree with that part of your point. I just don't think it's particularly applicable to the scene.
 
Yup. If there'd been any indication that Kendra couldn't do it because she can't bring herself to kill, that would be one thing. (A ridiculous thing, for her to say that all these years 'Carter's protected her' and she's never actually killed somebody, but a thing.)

But what stayed her hand wasn't compassion or some unforeseen commitment to preserve life. She explicitly says that she's willing to sacrifice the world on the off chance Savage can be convinced to restore Carter's mind.
 
But what stayed her hand wasn't compassion or some unforeseen commitment to preserve life. She explicitly says that she's willing to sacrifice the world on the off chance Savage can be convinced to restore Carter's mind.

I don't think she said she was willing, in the sense that she was hunky-dory with it. More that she was apologizing to Rip for being unable to sacrifice Carter to save his family. People often say harsher things about themselves than they deserve. Just because someone says "I'm a terrible person," that doesn't mean you get to go "Aha, that proves she's a terrible person!" Because almost everyone has said that about themselves at some point -- and the people who haven't ever thought that about themselves are generally the ones who really are terrible people.

And it still means she's motivated by love. A love that's defined her existence for 4,000 years. Is it so hard to believe she couldn't just cast it aside effortlessly? That she could be overwhelmed by it despite her best efforts? Most of us can't overcome habits we've had since high school, let alone since Ancient Egypt. So who are we to judge? This isn't about Kendra being stupid, it's about Savage being smart. He found her greatest weakness, the one thing that could break her resolve to destroy him. He took the noblest part of her existence, her capacity to love totally and profoundly, and twisted it against her. So the blame belongs with Savage, not Kendra.
 
I am curious about Carter in this episode. I am wondering if this is not a reincarnation of Carter, but the exact same Carter who was killed in the pilot episode? That would make more sense wouldn't it, as it's already been hinted that one cannot reincarnate without the other having died.
 
We saw the cult drain Carter of blood and drink him dry in the 1970s(??), thus extending their life span by hundreds of years.

Cloning the remains, 2 centuries later, maybe?

Surgically altering someone similar looking who isn't Carter?
 
I just caught up on this show, was 2 episodes behind.
When Ray went all GIANT MAN it was all I could do not to laugh and cite rip off.
I'm not Atom expert but has the Atom ever done that in the comics? It feels like they just wanted to beat Ant-Man to the punch.

I am hopefully optimistic that the show will resolve the Vandal Savage storyline at seasons end.
I was caught off guard by young Rip taking a knife to Pilgrim like that.
Seems they are going to bring Hawkman back for the closing episodes.
It's amazing how quick the team was to move past Rory as Cronos and now the character is seemingly showing more depth.

I keep seeing news reports of a new character to be introduced in the final 3 episodes that may be a full time character next season. Curious who that's going to be. Booster Gold seems redundant to Rip even though many fans want it. I think they should dump both Cold & Heat and add 3 all new full time characters. Put Cold & Heat back on Flash and perhaps have a Rouges War storyline for S3 there.
I'd add characters with a varied power set for LoT S2.
Constantine
Plastic Man(utilizing the Cold/Heat angle of a bad guy gone good)
Jesse Quick
 
I just caught up on this show, was 2 episodes behind.
When Ray went all GIANT MAN it was all I could do not to laugh and cite rip off.
I'm not Atom expert but has the Atom ever done that in the comics? It feels like they just wanted to beat Ant-Man to the punch.
According to the Wiki, Atom gained growth powers in Zero Hour (1994) Other Atoms/Atom legacies also had growth powers like Atom Smasher and the Micron from Batman Beyond
 
I just caught up on this show, was 2 episodes behind.
When Ray went all GIANT MAN it was all I could do not to laugh and cite rip off.
I'm not Atom expert but has the Atom ever done that in the comics? It feels like they just wanted to beat Ant-Man to the punch.

mN7K1Vx.jpg

To elaborate on what @Nerys Myk already said, after Zero Hour, Ray was de-aged for a while, and joining a new Teen Titans team (see above). This was the time when he could increase his size, but that ability vanished once he was brought back to his original age.
 
I am curious about Carter in this episode. I am wondering if this is not a reincarnation of Carter, but the exact same Carter who was killed in the pilot episode? That would make more sense wouldn't it, as it's already been hinted that one cannot reincarnate without the other having died.

Or maybe it's a clone using material taken from the one killed in the 1970s?

For it to be a new incarnation of Carter, they would be ignoring that they generally don't re-incarnate until both have died but that wouldn't be too surprising.
 
Or maybe it's a clone using material taken from the one killed in the 1970s?

For it to be a new incarnation of Carter, they would be ignoring that they generally don't re-incarnate until both have died but that wouldn't be too surprising.
But this is 2016 Kendra and 2166 Carter. Carter has probably reincarnated a few times since he died 1975 and Kendra no doubt has died/reincarnated a few times as well.
 
But this is 2016 Kendra and 2166 Carter. Carter has probably reincarnated a few times since he died 1975 and Kendra no doubt has died/reincarnated a few times as well.

Damn time travel.

I was thinking that Rip had taken her out of her normal time in 2016 and she hasn't re-incarnated since (and as Kassandra noted, they disappeared 150 years before hand).
 
But this is 2016 Kendra and 2166 Carter. Carter has probably reincarnated a few times since he died 1975 and Kendra no doubt has died/reincarnated a few times as well.
Using the show's own internal logic (ahhahhaa... *ahem* sorry *wipes away a tear*), they've been out of the timeline long enough for their absence to be "solidified." So no, there shouldn't have been several reincarnations of either of them since Carter's death on the show.
 
I was thinking that Rip had taken her out of her normal time in 2016 and she hasn't re-incarnated since (and as Kassandra noted, they disappeared 150 years before hand).

No, you're right. If this show is sticking to its own rules (which is a very big "if"), then this should be a version of 2166 that has had no Kendra in it since she was taken aboard the Waverider 150 years earlier. So Carter shouldn't have been able to reincarnate.
 
The clone idea makes the most sense to me. My guess is that Savage has the clone on ice and heats him up when he senses Kendra. Otherwise, you run into the issue of the clone just happening to be the right age (unless Savage replaces the clone with a new batch every few years).

Of couse, that still doesn't explain how Savage is still alive (unless killing a clone Carter every couple years provides a temporary boost to his immortality).
 
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