DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Christopher]

Sure, but my point about what WB did still stands, because we were talking about WB in this case, not the examples you brought in.

Seriously?? What do you think an example is? That is literally the entire point of an example-based argument, to say that what's true of the examples can also be true of the thing they're being compared to.

Potentially, there's no reason the DCEU couldn't have started with a team movie to introduce the characters and the world and then spun them off into solo movies. Just because Marvel did it the other way doesn't mean that's the "right" way. Anything can be the right way if it's done with enough skill. The DCEU was not done with enough skill, and that is the actual problem.

 

[fireproof78]

The problem is simply that WB didn't do it well enough. Quality isn't about what you do, it's about how you do it.

Exactly. DC benefits from a lot of name recognition with the big leads with Superman and Batman. Handled well they could have spun off in multiple directions and built up their own comic book universe outside of Marvel. And, FFS, Marvel is not right all the time.

 

[EnderAKH]

I've said it before, I will say it again. It's the fucking SUPERFRIENDS. Every adult who grew up in the 70s and 80s had a built in connection to those characters. They should have been able to put out a movie that drew so much excitement that its box office blew The Avengers out of the water, and then easily spun 7+ franchises out of that. But they blew it. I know Snyder's approach has many fans, but it could have had such a wider appeal and a bigger fanbase. Justice League should not have been out sold by Aquaman.

 

[theenglish]

Potentially, there's no reason the DCEU couldn't have started with a team movie to introduce the characters and the world and then spun them off into solo movies. Just because Marvel did it the other way doesn't mean that's the "right" way. Anything can be the right way if it's done with enough skill. The DCEU was not done with enough skill, and that is the actual problem.

I agree with this completely. Everyone knows the basic "Super Friends" and none of the characters, nor their power sets, need a lot of explanation or introduction. The general public was much less familiar with the Marvel Heroes than they are with Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and even the Flash. The Justice League movie wasn't a flop because the characters had not been previously established--it was a flop because it was a mediocre movie that was released into a world where people have a much higher expectation with what they expect from a super-hero film.

 

[Mage]

Seriously?? What do you think an example is? That is literally the entire point of an example-based argument, to say that what's true of the examples can also be true of the thing they're being compared to.

Potentially, there's no reason the DCEU couldn't have started with a team movie to introduce the characters and the world and then spun them off into solo movies. Just because Marvel did it the other way doesn't mean that's the "right" way. Anything can be the right way if it's done with enough skill. The DCEU was not done with enough skill, and that is the actual problem.

The need to point out where other franchises did it right. And those examples would be fine if I had said NO franchise has ever done it right. I only said the DCEU didn't do it right. Because they went half way. Man Of Steel, half way intro for Batman and Wonder Woman and then boom: Justice League with three more characters.

So, again, your need to bring in other franchises would have been legitimate if I said NO FRANCHISE has ever work with a team movie first.

 

[Christopher]

I only said the DCEU didn't do it right. Because they went half way. Man Of Steel, half way intro for Batman and Wonder Woman and then boom: Justice League with three more characters.

That's still not getting it. The format does not determine success or failure. For any given format, there are both successful and failed examples. It's the execution that matters.

 

[fireproof78]

Because they went half way.

They went halfway in terms of execution, not approach.

 

[Mage]

That's still not getting it. The format does not determine success or failure. For any given format, there are both successful and failed examples. It's the execution that matters.

Christopher. I read your post. I think you half-read mine. Or something was lost in translation, that my phrasing was off. From what you're saying, we're agreeing. Let's leave it at for now, because right now it's nearing midnight here and I'm heading for bed. I already hate discussions on forums because no good ever comes out of them (see earlier in this topic for proof of that) and in my first week of holiday I already got drawn into three of them. That's what you got for having nothing to do in the current situation.

I wish you a good night, and I'm already sorry for starting this.

 

[Thestral]

Why would people want to summon the specter of the Superfriends....? Hasn't Aquaman suffered enough...?

 

[Christopher]

If nothing else, Super Friends gave us the Hall of Justice.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The need to point out where other franchises did it right. And those examples would be fine if I had said NO franchise has ever done it right. I only said the DCEU didn't do it right. Because they went half way. Man Of Steel, half way intro for Batman and Wonder Woman and then boom: Justice League with three more characters.

So, again, your need to bring in other franchises would have been legitimate if I said NO FRANCHISE has ever work with a team movie first.

Why would people want to summon the specter of the Superfriends....? Hasn't Aquaman suffered enough...?

You are not kidding.

The Super Friends--even as a memory--was the worst adaptation of DC characters in history and advanced the idea that superheroes were childish, lightweight concepts not to be taken seriously. Snyder--like Nolan before him--placed DC characters in a realistic world that would react to them...realistically (shocker), not as if they are your lawn-mowing neighbors, or cartoons running around in a Who Framed Roger Rabbit? manner. Superhero movies have seen that kind of handling too often--run into the ground, and when it hit DC films, the result was Shazam, which was wrongheaded from every conceivable angle.
We have long known that Justice League was cut to ribbons and placed in the hands of someone utterly unqualified to finish it after Snyder's departure, but we will soon see how a DC team film was meant to be executed, which--in theory--should pick up from the seamless transitions from Man of Steel, Dawn of Justice, and Wonder Woman. There's no fact-based reason to think that the problems of Justice League were "baked in", since, as noted, the three films before it worked and seamlessly, successfully built the DC film universe.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

You are not kidding.

The Super Friends--even as a memory--was the worst adaptation of DC characters in history and advanced the idea that superheroes were childish, lightweight concepts not to be taken seriously. Snyder--like Nolan before him--placed DC characters in a realistic world that would react to them...realistically (shocker), not as if they are your lawn-mowing neighbors, or cartoons running around in a Who Framed Roger Rabbit? manner. Superhero movies have seen that kind of handling too often--run into the ground, and when it hit DC films, the result was Shazam, which was wrongheaded from every conceivable angle.

Super Friends got me, my brothers and our group of friends into the DC Universe, into collecting comic books and into the fans we are today. And with that, we branched out into all that the medium had to offer, from Marvel and Vertigo and eventually Image and the rest.

Some of us knew how to have fun and enjoy things when growing up, things that aren't dour and cynical are the perfect gateway into what we're so passionate about now. Angry adults need to remember that kids are allowed to enjoy this stuff as well. It really shouldn't even be for us in many cases. We have to be open with our demands that ONLY our views and needs should be met with these movies. There's a tone for everyone on earth, man, woman, boy, girl, let's not be so closed minded and selfish please.

 

[The Realist]

Some of us knew how to have fun and enjoy things when growing up

Some of us even remember how to do that now.

 

[Christopher]

I dunno, even as a kid, I thought Super Friends and Hanna-Barbera shows in general were dumber and cheesier than other Saturday morning shows like Filmation productions. Although the last couple of seasons got much better, thanks to writers like Alan Burnett and Rich Fogel who'd go on to be very influential in the DC Animated Universe and later productions.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

It could also depend on how old you were at the time. Or I was just a dumb kid that didn't notice writing, just the fun and awesome characters doing awesome things haha. But for my brother and I, we'd have our Super Powers action figures out and be playing right along with the episode. It was a magical time. I was 5 when the first wave came out (my brother a year and a half younger), 6 when the 2nd, but didn't get any from the 3rd wave for whatever reason.

 

[Christopher]

It could also depend on how old you were at the time.

Yeah -- it started when I was five, and I liked it then, but by the time I was 10 or so I'd lost a lot of interest.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Super Friends got me, my brothers and our group of friends into the DC Universe, into collecting comic books and into the fans we are today.

For me, I started with comics, so adaptations had a base--a standard to use as a template an/or inspiration, so when an adaptation failed--like The Super Friends, it was glaring to me and innumerable natural "book first" comic readers.

Some of us knew how to have fun and enjoy things when growing up

A false assumption that others did not if they did not experience/react to things your way. People who experienced comics first always had their enjoyment or disappointment of adaptations based on the aforementioned use--or failure to use the comics as a strong template. This is the reason why The Super Friends was terrible (to many a dedicated reader of the Justice League of America comic in that era), while Hanna-Barbera's 1967 Fantastic Four cartoon was a joy to watch, as it tried to capture the best of the plots and characterizations of that comic title's greatest period in a 22 minute format. While certain shortcuts had to be used (and not be as violent as the comic could be), the final result was that it--almost without question--remains the most source-faithful adaptation of the FF in filmed media history and stands in stark contrast to the 1990s Corman low-rent disaster and the 21st century movies (originals and reboot). The H-B Fantastic Four is an example of a cartoon adaptation doing it right, and not dumbing down a property, as H-B would end up doing only a few years later with SF, including filling it with the studio's already worn-out, silly tropes seen in their back catalog.

There's a tone for everyone on earth, man, woman, boy, girl, let's not be so closed minded and selfish please.

If that's the case, then some should not leap to attack anyone who prefer their superhero movies to be serious and a stronger reflection of the source in one way or another. Threads like this one prove that is not happening, as a repeated argument is that serious superhero films are somehow "wrong" or their fans dislike "fun" as if that has one definition. Close minded and selfish, indeed.

I dunno, even as a kid, I thought Super Friends and Hanna-Barbera shows in general were dumber and cheesier than other Saturday morning shows like Filmation productions.

Agree with most of that. Beyond H-B's 60's output, the only production with any merit was 1972's Sealab: 2020 (not the Williams Street parody Sealab: 2021). The rest...sigh.

 

[JD]

The Super Friends--even as a memory--was the worst adaptation of DC characters in history and advanced the idea that superheroes were childish, lightweight concepts not to be taken seriously. Snyder--like Nolan before him--placed DC characters in a realistic world that would react to them...realistically (shocker), not as if they are your lawn-mowing neighbors, or cartoons running around in a Who Framed Roger Rabbit? manner.

You do realize it was a kids cartoon right, and not a drama for cynical adults right?

Superhero movies have seen that kind of handling too often--run into the ground, and when it hit DC films, the result was Shazam, which was wrongheaded from every conceivable angle.

Most of the reactionst to Shazam I've seen have been positive.

We have long known that Justice League was cut to ribbons and placed in the hands of someone utterly unqualified to finish it after Snyder's departure, but we will soon see how a DC team film was meant to be executed, which--in theory--should pick up from the seamless transitions from Man of Steel, Dawn of Justice, and Wonder Woman. There's no fact-based reason to think that the problems of Justice League were "baked in", since, as noted, the three films before it worked and seamlessly, successfully built the DC film universe.

You do realize the guy who took over was Joss Whedon, the same guy who wrote and directed the first two Avengers movies, right? I'd say that's a pretty good qualification for directing a superhero team movie like Justice League.

Noah Centino has been cast as Atom Smasher in the Back Adam movie. Not familiar with the actor, and my only experience with the character was his brief appearance in The Flash TV series.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You do realize it was a kids cartoon right, and not a drama for cynical adults right?

You do realize that many kids who were reading the Justice League of America comics in the 70s thought The Super Friends was silly junk, right?

You do realize the guy who took over was Joss Whedon, the same guy who wrote and directed the first two Avengers movies, right? I'd say that's a pretty good qualification for directing a superhero team movie like Justice League.

That's like saying Brian DePalma directed Scarface &The Untouchables, so that automatically gave him the qualifications to direct any other mob/crime movie. No, it does not, as content, tone, style and understanding of the specific story and its "world" is not "one size fits all" for every director or producer. Whedon was wrong for JL and how the DCEU had been set in motion up to that point. There would not be the coming Snyder version (which fans have longed to see before the official announcement) if Whedon was right for the film.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

You do realize that many kids who were reading the Justice League of America comics in the 70s thought The Super Friends was silly junk, right?

No crap, you were old, it obviously wasn't meant for people like you.

I never understood selfish comic fans that can't share with a younger generation allowing something they love to not quite be for them. Yes, they can write things for everyone, young and old, but they obviously didn't and that is okay.