DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[CorporalCaptain]

I thought that Stewart and Spiner were demanding more input in the script, but maybe I am wrong and it was with Nemesis.

Stewart had input on Insurrection and received an associate producer credit. Spiner had input on Nemesis with a story credit.

Supposedly the NEM dune buggy was put in because Sir Patrick liked dune buggy racing [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Trivia/StarTrekNemesis].

 

[dahj]

Yes, and that annoys me, because it's completely missing the point of the Amazons of myth, which was to be emphatically anti-Greek (or at least anathema to Athenian gender values).

In the original origin of the DC Amazons they were Greek women who broke the literal shackles(that's where the bracelets come from) of male oppression, so I don't think that particular point was lost in translation.

 

[Christopher]

In the original origin of the DC Amazons they were Greek women who broke the literal shackles(that's where the bracelets come from) of male oppression, so I don't think that particular point was lost in translation.

Thematically, no, but it's still highly revisionist. If you went back in time and told an ancient Greek that future writers would portray Amazons as Greek, they'd be stunned and probably offended, because to them, Amazons were a symbol of the alienness and perversion of barbarian cultures.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Thematically, no, but it's still highly revisionist.

So, what? As another poster pointed out recently, I thought you've said repeatedly that adaptation is a positive thing.

If you went back in time and told an ancient Greek that future writers would portray Amazons as Greek

That's, like, the very definition of a non-issue for something written in the here and now.

 

[dahj]

Thematically, no, but it's still highly revisionist. If you went back in time and told an ancient Greek that future writers would portray Amazons as Greek, they'd be stunned and probably offended, because to them, Amazons were a symbol of the alienness and perversion of barbarian cultures.

But these stories weren't written for the Ancient Greeks, they were initially written for the heavily patriarchal society of the 40s, and are now, almost 80 years later, still being written for the not quite as heavily, but still rather patriarchal society of today. It was meant to be both more empowering for girls this way, to show that we do have the power to break free of society's oppression, and for boys as well to see that women who live among them have value, and given the opportunity for that value to be expressed could achieve so much more.

If the Amazons were some separate entity, independent and alien of the mainstream Greek culture, who didn't have to go through that struggle, it would diminish that message somewhat.

On another note but also quite relevant, while the ancient Greeks were a horribly sexist society, they are responsible for an immeasurable wealth of culture, stories and mythology, and by making them Greek you get to expose kids to all of that in a fun way and make them possibly interested in all that richness, which is also quite a positive aspect of it.

 

[The Realist]

It was meant to be both more empowering for girls this way, to show that we do have the power to break free of society's oppression, and for boys as well to see that women who live among them have value, and given the opportunity for that value to be expressed could achieve so much more.

Yeppers. Marston was a bit of a nut in some ways, but he definitely consciously intended for Wonder Woman to send a message of female empowerment to both girls and boys -- he even explicitly referred to it as "psychological propaganda" toward that end.

 

[Christopher]

But these stories weren't written for the Ancient Greeks, they were initially written for the heavily patriarchal society of the 40s, and are now, almost 80 years later, still being written for the not quite as heavily, but still rather patriarchal society of today.It was meant to be both more empowering for girls this way, to show that we do have the power to break free of society's oppression, and for boys as well to see that women who live among them have value, and given the opportunity for that value to be expressed could achieve so much more.

Yes, of course, but how does that in any way require the Amazons to be portrayed as Greek? It actually works better if they're not. While it wasn't unheard of for Greeks to enslave fellow Greeks who had been conquered in wars, it was an unpopular practice; for the most part, slaves in Greek society were of foreign origin. So if the goal is to portray the Amazons as victims of enslavement by the Greeks, then it makes far more sense if they're non-Greek as in the original myths.

On another note but also quite relevant, while the ancient Greeks were a horribly sexist society, they are responsible for an immeasurable wealth of culture, stories and mythology, and by making them Greek you get to expose kids to all of that in a fun way and make them possibly interested in all that richness, which is also quite a positive aspect of it.

Not really, because Greece was an imperial culture, and empires, by definition, impose their culture on numerous other societies and ethnic groups beyond the founding population. The Greeks had influence on many cultures throughout the eastern Mediterranean and Asia Minor. Again, there were slaves and metics (free non-citizens of foreign origin) from many different cultures living under Greek rule and assimilated into Greek culture.

Besides, it's not like Greece and Rome are the only great cultures of history worth learning about -- it's just that the Eurocentric bias of our history education has brainwashed us to assume that.

 

[JD]

Honestly, the DC Amazons have been Greek for 77 years, and I don't really see what the point in changing them now would be, beyond making a small handful of people who care about that kind of shit happy.

 

[dahj]

Yes, of course, but how does that in any way require the Amazons to be portrayed as Greek? It actually works better if they're not.

I disagree, the goal here isn't to accurately portray Greek history, "Greece" here is an allegory for our society and the oppression of women who are a part of that society, not some outside element.

Not really, because Greece was an imperial culture, and empires, by definition, impose their culture on numerous other societies and ethnic groups beyond the founding population. The Greeks had influence on many cultures throughout the eastern Mediterranean and Asia Minor. Again, there were slaves and metics (free non-citizens of foreign origin) from many different cultures living under Greek rule and assimilated into Greek culture.

Besides, it's not like Greece and Rome are the only great cultures of history worth learning about -- it's just that the Eurocentric bias of our history education has brainwashed us to assume that.

I don't see what that has to do with what I've said.

I know Greeks and Romans were pretty much dicks. I know that because I've read history books. I read history books because I got interested in that history by reading Asterix comics as a kid (Wonder Woman wasn't available here).

If Asterix books weren't about a funny little guy with a moustache punching Romans in the face and instead about Caesar committing genocide across Gaul I probably wouldn't have wanted to know more.

The goal of these stories isn't to be an accurate history textbook, they're fictional tales that use aspects of history and mythology in an entertaining and engaging way, and as such they have the power to get kids(like myself) to get interested in actual history and mythology, which I really don't see how that can be a bad thing.

 

[Christopher]

Honestly, the DC Amazons have been Greek for 77 years

No, as a matter of fact, they weren't. According to their Golden Age origin, the Amazons were a race of powerful women who lived in a land called Amazonia until they were conquered and forced into slavery by Hercules. According to the 1986 Who's Who, Amazonia was located on the coast of the Black Sea in what's currently Turkey, which is consistent with the Scythians and other cultures that the Amazons of myth were based on.

For that matter, the post-Crisis Amazons aren't Greek either. Their culture was founded by the Olympian Gods, yes, but they were resurrected from the souls of women all over the world who had died unjustly at male hands. And in the current New 52 continuity, the Amazons are the daughters of Hera, who gave birth to them on the original Themyscira (the modern name for Amazonia), the one in Turkey for which the island was later named.

So the Amazons may have a lot of culturally Greek elements, and they worship the same (actually existing) gods as the Greeks, and I guess they speak Greek (but so did the Jews and early Christians of Roman times), but the fact is, they have never been portrayed in the comics as ethnically or politically Greek. They're more Greek-adjacent, a neighbor culture to whom the Greeks were adversaries and assimilators. Which is what I've been saying all along. The fact is, the comics Amazons are closer to the mythic Amazons than I've thought.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

No, as a matter of fact, they weren't. According to their Golden Age origin, the Amazons were a race of powerful women who lived in a land called Amazonia until they were conquered and forced into slavery by Hercules. According to the 1986 Who's Who, Amazonia was located on the coast of the Black Sea in what's currently Turkey, which is consistent with the Scythians and other cultures that the Amazons of myth were based on.

For that matter, the post-Crisis Amazons aren't Greek either. Their culture was founded by the Olympian Gods, yes, but they were resurrected from the souls of women all over the world who had died unjustly at male hands. And in the current New 52 continuity, the Amazons are the daughters of Hera, who gave birth to them on the original Themyscira (the modern name for Amazonia), the one in Turkey for which the island was later named.

So the Amazons may have a lot of culturally Greek elements, and they worship the same (actually existing) gods as the Greeks, and I guess they speak Greek (but so did the Jews and early Christians of Roman times), but the fact is, they have never been portrayed in the comics as ethnically or politically Greek. They're more Greek-adjacent, a neighbor culture to whom the Greeks were adversaries and assimilators. Which is what I've been saying all along. The fact is, the comics Amazons are closer to the mythic Amazons than I've thought.

 

[JD]

No, as a matter of fact, they weren't. According to their Golden Age origin, the Amazons were a race of powerful women who lived in a land called Amazonia until they were conquered and forced into slavery by Hercules. According to the 1986 Who's Who, Amazonia was located on the coast of the Black Sea in what's currently Turkey, which is consistent with the Scythians and other cultures that the Amazons of myth were based on.

For that matter, the post-Crisis Amazons aren't Greek either. Their culture was founded by the Olympian Gods, yes, but they were resurrected from the souls of women all over the world who had died unjustly at male hands. And in the current New 52 continuity, the Amazons are the daughters of Hera, who gave birth to them on the original Themyscira (the modern name for Amazonia), the one in Turkey for which the island was later named.

So the Amazons may have a lot of culturally Greek elements, and they worship the same (actually existing) gods as the Greeks, and I guess they speak Greek (but so did the Jews and early Christians of Roman times), but the fact is, they have never been portrayed in the comics as ethnically or politically Greek. They're more Greek-adjacent, a neighbor culture to whom the Greeks were adversaries and assimilators. Which is what I've been saying all along. The fact is, the comics Amazons are closer to the mythic Amazons than I've thought.

Oh, I did not know most of that. The bit about them being the resurrected souls of dead women from around the world does sound vaguely familiar. I wonder if it might have come up in one animated series or movies, or a story in the Sensation Comics antholothy series?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sounds like who ever wrote that wiki entry (and the Who's Who entry) on Amazonia lifted their info from various articles about the Amazons rather than the story told in All-Star Comics #8 (the first appearance of Wonder Woman and DC's Amazons) The location of Amazonia is never mentioned.
The Greeks were all over the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. They had colonies as far west as Spain and east into Asia Minor

 

[Christopher]

Sounds like who ever wrote that wiki entry (and the Who's Who entry) on Amazonia lifted their info from various articles about the Amazons rather than the story told in All-Star Comics #8 (the first appearance of Wonder Woman and DC's Amazons) The location of Amazonia is never mentioned.

As I already said, it was the 1986 Who's Who that established Amazonia's location for the first time. I never said it was attributed to All-Star #8. This is a long-running work of serial fiction, so naturally the details accreted over decades. Which is my whole point -- that DC has always portrayed the Amazons as a separate culture that was conquered by the Greeks, just as the original myths did.

And the location is beside the point anyway. The point is that Marston said the Amazons were from a female-ruled land called Amazonia. He always presented them as their own distinct country and culture that the Greeks conquered.

The Greeks were all over the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. They had colonies as far west as Spain and east into Asia Minor

Yes, that is exactly my point -- that the influence of Greek civilization affected many cultures that were not themselves Greek. That is, after all, what an empire is.

 

[Christopher]

Anyway, getting back to the subject of DC movies: DC and Warner Bros. are developing a movie around the Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle.

https://www.thewrap.com/jaime-reyes-blue-beetle-latino-superhero/

Hmm. A movie about a guy bonded to a symbiotic alien intelligence and needing to restrain its aggressive nature in order to become a hero? I wonder if maybe the box-office success of Venom influenced WB's decision to go ahead with this.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

To hammer on the point that the Amazons aren't ethnically Greek is to overlook the point that it is the Greek gods themselves who are the Amazonian gods. In contrast to whatever real world Amazons might have been, the DC Amazons don't have a culture that predates the application of Greek mythology onto them. In the DC universe the Greek mythological characterization of the Amazons equals their historic characterization. Even if we accept the perspective that they are not Greek, they still exist in the Greek Sphere in which the Olympian gods and goddesses are central, and they always did.

 

[dahj]

I wonder if maybe the box-office success of Venom influenced WB's decision to go ahead with this.

I'd say the box office success of Wonder Woman and Black Panther were a bigger influence.
After all, Suicide Squad was a big hit in the Latino community in no small part due to El Diablo, so I think the suits are hoping a first big budget Latino superhero movie will do to the Latino market the same thing that WW and BP did to women and black people, namely get lots of butts in seats.

 

[Anwar]

Blue Beetle? Well, nice to see them trying to do more than just their big gun characters.

 

[dahj]

Blue Beetle? Well, nice to see them trying to do more than just their big gun characters.

Aquaman is out in like two weeks and while he certainly has big guns, he's hardly a big gun.

 

[Anwar]

Aquaman is out in like two weeks and while he certainly has big guns, he's hardly a big gun.

He's known as part of the Major DC characters, just not as well respected....yet.

Blue Beetle is far more obscure.