DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

[Anwar]

And having said that, I'm still drawing a blank on any onscreen explanation to the whereabouts of the other Marvel heroes in IM3 and Thor 2.

Thor was gone, Hulk was in hiding. Cap and Widow were part of the teams that AIM were sending on Wild Goose chases over the globe along with War Machine. Hawkeye was recovering from the brainwashing from Avengers. Dark World, the stuff on Earth didn't happen long enough for the others to mobilize in time. Tony himself was still semi-retired.

The only explanation I'm iffy on for Suicide Squad is Flash. You'd think he'd at least want to TRY to something.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Thor was gone, Hulk was in hiding. Cap and Widow were part of the teams that AIM were sending on Wild Goose chases over the globe along with War Machine. Hawkeye was recovering from the brainwashing from Avengers. Dark World, the stuff on Earth didn't happen long enough for the others to mobilize in time. Tony himself was still semi-retired.

And they mentioned that all on-screen?! I mean, I accept that all - well, except for Tony, because that retirement wasn't even mentioned by the time Age of Ultron happened, not to mention his robot drones. and why is the Hulk in hiding, but all active in Age of Ultron? - , but the distinction, as I understand you, is that Marvel explained all that on-screen. And I honestly can't remember any of that, aside from Thor being off-world from Avengers till TDW, and I've just re-watched both IM3 and TDW maybe two months ago.

The only explanation I'm iffy on for Suicide Squad is Flash. You'd think he'd at least want to TRY to something.

Well, maybe he tried something, but we just didn't see it. It's not like we'd expect that version of Barry to be very effective against this particular threat.

 

[Anwar]

And they mentioned that all on-screen?!

Rhodey told Tony that they had teams investigating the Mandarin sightings over the globe (before we found out those were wild goose chases), and that would've included Widow and Cap. Hawkeye's absences were explained retroactively in AOU, Thor clearly was shown to have been off-world and hadn't come back till TDW. All explained.

I mean, I accept that all - well, except for Tony, because that retirement wasn't even mentioned by the time Age of Ultron happened, not to mention his robot drones.

Civil War explained that his inability to stay retired led to AOU and other issues.

and why is the Hulk in hiding, but all active in Age of Ultron? - , but the distinction, as I understand you, is that Marvel explained all that on-screen.

Something is better than nothing.

Well, maybe he tried something, but we just didn't see it. It's not like we'd expect that version of Barry to be very effective against this particular threat.

If the Flash film (if it ever gets made) explains why he didn't do anything, I'll be satisfied. But DCEU hasn't inspired that kind of continuity that well.

 

[Nerys Myk]

When they make them as OP as the DC heroes, it's valid. The MCU at least gives us explanations like Thor not being on Earth very much or Cap and Widow and Hawkeye being away on missions

Nope, that's just fanboy over thinking.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Saving an orphanage in Africa from wildfire, punching Bane out of Gotham... there's shit going on all over the world all the time, use your freaking imagination people, why do you need them to spell everything out?

This is generally my attitude towards almost all these discussions (not just in the MCU, but in comics, tv shows, whatever, no matter the brand). But Suicide Squad really is just begging you to ask the question. I've never seen a superhero/villain story so determined to make the audience think 'Wait, where is x?'

You've got an unprecedented attack on a major american city. The entire city evacuated. Civilians filming the shit with their phones. A sky beam that must be visible to news cameras for miles around. *3 days* this stuff is going on before the Squad even arrives. And the movie deliberately gives you cameos of a hero that can run faster than the speed of sound and a hero who we know has his own superjet, going out of its way to remind the audience that they are indeed out there and they fight bad guys and protect the innocent. But not in Midway City, apparently. It's the weirdest setup I could possibly imagine.

Justice League is the only out card I can really think of - if I just assume that both these movies are happening roughly at the same time, then that is an event that actually makes sense as being more important than this (I don't think this was intended at all, but I also don't think anything openly contradicts it, so...). Outside of that, SS really is the cherry on top of the crazy sundae when it comes to this subject.

Also, how the hell would Wonder Woman and Batman be there in a matter of hours. DCEU Wonder Woman can't fly and lives in Europe, she can't just go and cross the Atlantic on a whim. She'd have to use a plane to get there, and booking a flight into a crisis area takes some time and doing (not to mention that she has to work for a living). And Batman, yeah, maybe he could have been there, but what was he supposed to do? Sure, he went up against Superman, but he prepared weeks for that.

Batman figures out people's weaknesses. That's the whole point of Batman. Maybe he couldn't have stopped Enchantress, but as Batman it would be pretty weird if he knew about the whole thing and just couldn't be bothered to try.

And having said that, I'm still drawing a blank on any onscreen explanation to the whereabouts of the other Marvel heroes in IM3 and Thor 2.

Thor 2 never needed explanations. That stuff is over in minutes. It's ridiculous to expect anyone to show up that fast. And the whole point of IM3 is that Tony's deliberately isolating himself because he's screwed up in the head and trying to prove something to himself. There are other heroes out there somewhere trying to find him/the Mandarin, it's just that War Machine is the only one who succeeds.

And why the fuck are we comparing DC and Marvel movies again?! We know where everybody stands on them, why do we need to discuss this yet another time? This was about the news of James Gunn working on the Suicide Squad sequel. Which I think most of us agree is a good thing. Why keep dwelling on the same old arguments?

That I agree with. I think SS deserves this particular criticism, but it is not a marvel vs dc thing. It's just this one movie that went ridiculously over the top and I have absolutely no problem with the other dc films in this regard nor do I expect SS2 will share the issue.

Thor was gone, Hulk was in hiding. Cap and Widow were part of the teams that AIM were sending on Wild Goose chases over the globe along with War Machine. Hawkeye was recovering from the brainwashing from Avengers. Dark World, the stuff on Earth didn't happen long enough for the others to mobilize in time. Tony himself was still semi-retired.

The only explanation I'm iffy on for Suicide Squad is Flash. You'd think he'd at least want to TRY to something.

You're overthinking IM3. Tony was in hiding, trying to prove something to himself. We don't know exactly who was looking for him other than War Machine, but it doesn't matter because he himself made it so hard to find him in time.

Re SS I would say the exact opposite. Wonder Woman ironically would be the most useful, but since we've no idea where she might be or if she even follows the news, her not making it in time is not worth mentioning. Flash's fear was pretty clearly showcased in Justice League so him not wanting to fight something that can cause the evacuation of an entire city makes sense. I would hope he would come help evacuate anyone who had trouble making it out - but he could literally do that so fast that people wouldn't see him doing it (as BvS established).

The biggest issue is Batman. He monitors the world around him for dangers obsessively. When weird stuff happens, he goes after it and tries to figure out what it is and how to stop it. If he thinks he'd have trouble by himself, then maybe he contacts help if there is any available, but he doesn't just not show up. That's not Batman. And considering the size of what's happening here, it's just not credible to say he was busy doing something else (unless it was during JL). Anything else that's big enough to take precedence over this should be big enough for us to know about it. You could say maybe he was in Midway City and he was trying to do something, but he clearly didn't get totally wrecked and he doesn't quit and Enchantress wasn't exactly hiding, so if that were the case we should have at least glimpsed him in the background somewhere.

And that's the really weird part of it. They went out of their to way include cameos of both Affleck and Miller. If they were going to do that anyway and they were going to make the story so huge anyway, then why not just throw in some background cameos of Flash saving people or Batman fighting putties? You could even get some comedy gold out of Harley commentating him from a distance. And it would've made Waller's lack of concern for stopping Enchantress more credible, to boot.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Expecting the Flash movie or any future DCEU movie to address plot holes in Suicide Squad is ridiculous.

 

[Anwar]

Nope, that's just fanboy over thinking.

Rhodey said that the Government didn't want the Avengers getting involved but Widow and Cap are part of the usual Government forces. He also says they had teams out hunting down the Mandarin broadcasts, obviously Cap and Widow would be ON those teams same as War Machine. On wild goose chases.

Easy.

 

[Christopher]

And the movie deliberately gives you cameos of a hero that can run faster than the speed of sound and a hero who we know has his own superjet, going out of its way to remind the audience that they are indeed out there and they fight bad guys and protect the innocent. But not in Midway City, apparently. It's the weirdest setup I could possibly imagine.

Indeed. It was an incredibly ill-conceived and poorly executed movie. The whole point of the Suicide Squad is secret missions, black ops that need to be deniable. If they'd gone that route, it would've avoided the whole question you raise here, as well as making far more sense for a team of criminals who have little or nothing in the way of superpowers. Building their movie around the exact same kind of huge, public crisis that ordinary superheroes would tackle was an utterly bewildering decision on the filmmakers' part. What were they thinking? The entire movie was a massive mistake, so it's no wonder they're calling Gunn's version a "fresh start."

They'd probably be best off just ignoring the first movie -- maybe not overtly contradicting it, but just sidestepping it so that it's up to the audience to decide whether it happened or not. Kind of like how the makers of The Wrath of Khan approached Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Although we've already seen that the DC movies are pretty free about retconning prior movies' continuity. BvS showed a world where at least half the populace feared and mistrusted Superman, but then JL showed a world where everyone had loved Superman and his death had thrown the world into despair like never before. And the Wonder Woman films have pretty much ignored BvS's portrayal of Diana as someone who gave up trying to help for a whole century after WWI.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^

Although we've already seen that the DC movies are pretty free about retconning prior movies' continuity. BvS showed a world where at least half the populace feared and mistrusted Superman, but then JL showed a world where everyone had loved Superman and his death had thrown the world into despair like never before. And the Wonder Woman films have pretty much ignored BvS's portrayal of Diana as someone who gave up trying to help for a whole century after WWI.

I’m in agreement with most of your post but I don’t really see a contradiction as regards Superman's standing among the public before and after his death. As Col. Tom Parker is alleged to have said when Elvis died, it’s a “good career move.” I remember when princess Diana died how newspapers that had been slating her the week before her death were now canonising her. Apparently after JFK’s assassination, more people claimed to have voted for him than ever voted for him in reality. And in recent years we’ve seen how when pop stars or actors die, all of a sudden everyone is a fan. So I can well believe that if Superman died as he did in BvS, all of a sudden he’d be transformed from zero to hero.

 

[Christopher]

So I can well believe that if Superman died as he did in BvS, all of a sudden he’d be transformed from zero to hero.

The thing is, it wasn't just about what people said they believed about Superman. The premise of the movie was that Steppenwolf swore to return to Earth once darkness fell upon it, once humanity was at its lowest, most vulnerable point. "I see, Mother. I see why you waited to summon me. That Kryptonian's death plunged this timid world into such terror." The whole plot was built around the assertion that Superman's death had caused humanity's hope to vanish like never before, leading to a wave of nihilistic crimes like the one Wonder Woman stopped in the opening, and also attracting the Parademons (who were drawn to fear) and triggering Steppenwolf's return. Since the Mother Box only summoned Steppy when the world's despair was profound enough, this means that Superman's death was the most despair-inducing event in thousands of years, even worse than the Black Plague or the Holocaust, supposedly. The movie required that the public had utterly loved Superman and depended on him emotionally as the primary source of hope and light in their lives, and that his death had robbed them of all hope for the future and effectively brought about the End Times. That's completely incompatible with the way BvS showed the public's ambivalence and suspicion toward Superman.

Although that's fine with me, really. It doesn't make a lot of sense that Superman's death would be the single most despair-inducing event in recorded human history, but I'd rather see a movie that portrays him as a symbol of hope and light than one that portrays him as a feared and hated figure. Digital upper lips aside, JL is the one DCEU movie that's come the closest to getting Superman right.

 

[Anwar]

Even that whole "The Mother Boxes only activated after Superman died" thing made no sense...the Mother Box that created Cyborg was clearly active and that was before he died.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Rhodey said that the Government didn't want the Avengers getting involved but Widow and Cap are part of the usual Government forces. He also says they had teams out hunting down the Mandarin broadcasts, obviously Cap and Widow would be ON those teams same as War Machine. On wild goose chases.

Easy.

It's not about any specific "explanations" in any movie. I just find the entire concept to be ridiculous and more fanboy than pro. A roll call of every character in a shared universe and their whereabouts is a waste of time. If I'm watching a movie about Superman or Captain America, I don't need or care about what Batman, Iron Man or Arm Falloff Boy is doing.

 

[Anwar]

It's not about any specific "explanations" in any movie. I just find the entire concept to be ridiculous and more fanboy than pro. A roll call of every character in a shared universe and their whereabouts is a waste of time. If I'm watching a movie about Superman or Captain America, I don't need or care about what Batman, Iron Man or Arm Falloff Boy is doing.

That's not how Shared Universes work. The comics can get away with it because of how old their universes are that it's become an accepted genre conceit. The movies aim to try for more connectivity, continuity and coherence. If the MCU can pull it off then I don't see why the DCEU can't put in that effort.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's not how Shared Universes work. The comics can get away with it because of how old their universes are that it's become an accepted genre conceit. The movies aim to try for more connectivity, continuity and coherence. If the MCU can pull it off then I don't see why the DCEU can't put in that effort.

It's exactly how they've worked for decades.

 

[Anwar]

It's exactly how they've worked for decades.

DC ignored things for years until Marvel popularized the idea of the characters interacting more often. Of course, as the series went on and the numerous titles popped up it became harder and harder to do so. Especially after the late 80s when the X-Men writers got swelled heads and started acting like the X-Men were in their own little world but no one had the guts to rein them in.

The Movies don't have the "too many series to keep track of" problem, even with the various TV and Netflix shows. They're able to keep it together better.

DC for some reason doesn't seem to have that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

DC ignored things for years until Marvel popularized the idea of the characters interacting more often. Of course, as the series went on and the numerous titles popped up it became harder and harder to do so. Especially after the late 80s when the X-Men writers got swelled heads and started acting like the X-Men were in their own little world but no one had the guts to rein them in.

The Movies don't have the "too many series to keep track of" problem, even with the various TV and Netflix shows. They're able to keep it together better.

DC for some reason doesn't seem to have that.

I've been reading comics since the sixties, this is not news.
And it's not a DC vs Marvel thing. It's a fan vs pro thing. "Where was Captain America when Iron Man was fighting the Titanium Man?" is a fanboy question. One that doesn't need to be asked or answered. Okay actually there is an answer. "Read a Cap comic if you want a Captain America story."

 

[Anwar]

I've been reading comics since the sixties, this is not news.
And it's not a DC vs Marvel thing. It's a fan vs pro thing. "Where was Captain America when Iron Man was fighting the Titanium Man?" is a fanboy question. One that doesn't need to be asked or answered. Okay actually there is an answer. "Read a Cap comic if you want a Captain America story."

With the comics we know they're all happening concurrently so we can just get the new Cap book and see what he was doing. Not so when the movies aren't happening concurrently. SS bothered showing us the heroes and gave no reasoning as to why they didn't do anything to help.

 

[Nerys Myk]

With the comics we know they're all happening concurrently so we can just get the new Cap book and see what he was doing. Not so when the movies aren't happening concurrently. SS bothered showing us the heroes and gave no reasoning as to why they didn't do anything to help.

No we don't know that. All we know is comics come out once a month. ( mostly)Once comic can have six issues that cover a day. Another can have one issue that covers a week.
SS told the story it wanted to tell. If the other characters aren't relevant to that story, they don't need to be included.

 

[Anwar]

No we don't know that. All we know is comics come out once a month. ( mostly)Once comic can have six issues that cover a day. Another can have one issue that covers a week.
SS told the story it wanted to tell. If the other characters aren't relevant to that story, they don't need to be included.

Then they shouldn't have included Batman and Flash in there to start with.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Indeed. It was an incredibly ill-conceived and poorly executed movie. The whole point of the Suicide Squad is secret missions, black ops that need to be deniable. If they'd gone that route, it would've avoided the whole question you raise here, as well as making far more sense for a team of criminals who have little or nothing in the way of superpowers. Building their movie around the exact same kind of huge, public crisis that ordinary superheroes would tackle was an utterly bewildering decision on the filmmakers' part. What were they thinking? The entire movie was a massive mistake, so it's no wonder they're calling Gunn's version a "fresh start."

They'd probably be best off just ignoring the first movie -- maybe not overtly contradicting it, but just sidestepping it so that it's up to the audience to decide whether it happened or not. Kind of like how the makers of The Wrath of Khan approached Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Although we've already seen that the DC movies are pretty free about retconning prior movies' continuity. BvS showed a world where at least half the populace feared and mistrusted Superman, but then JL showed a world where everyone had loved Superman and his death had thrown the world into despair like never before. And the Wonder Woman films have pretty much ignored BvS's portrayal of Diana as someone who gave up trying to help for a whole century after WWI.

I agree, but the bolded in particular leads back to my original point: I don't think this sequel was ever really likely to do much else than that, anyway. What possible benefit would there even be to continuing the story of Midway City in the sequel? The Squad never really cared about it, it's over and done with, and with a team like this it would actually be pretty weird for them to be hung up about the deaths of their comrades. The only thing that would seem to make any sense as a callback would be Waller's position being in danger since she was basically responsible for the whole thing, but it couldn't really be in danger because she's too important a character, so why bother?

By far the most logical approach to a Suicide Squad sequel is to just move forward in time and tell the story of another mission, independent of the first one. And that was true long before James Gunn was hired, imo.