DC Comics: Rebirth
- Thread starter theenglish
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The end of Convergence was a muddle. It took interviews from people like Didio for me to understand it. (Apparently, Convergence undid the ending of Crisis on Infinite Earths, but that's not clear in the comic itself.) Honestly, when I read Convergence I thought Clark, Lois, and Jon ended up on an entirely new Earth. It was Superman: Lois and Clark that established the Earth they were on was also the Earth of the New 52.
Oh yes, because I have to be 50-55 years old before I can have an opinion on what comics I like. Of course. No one could possibly love comics because of the Big 2, and prefer them to anything else. Or, if they do, its because they're young whippersnapers. They'll change their mind when they get older
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Really? That's your big take away from my comment? Of course you aren't too young to know what you like. That's just absurd. There's nothing wrong with loving comics from the Big 2.
They'll change their mind when they get older
Is that really such a hard notion to entertain? God forbid that your preferences and opinions might evolve after reading about the same characters for 20 or 30 years.
I started collecting comics seriously in my early teens about 30 years ago. Like you, I loved everything Marvel, and to a lesser extent, DC. And you know, after 30 years I still love all the characters and still enjoy reading about them. But here's the thing. Nothing really changes for these characters. DC and Marvel's main goal in the overall scheme of things is to maintain the status quo. Sure, they may present us with the illusion of change, like making Doc Ock Spider-Man, or having Steve Rogers quit being Captain America, or killing Superman, but at the end of the day we all know things will go back to the way they were.
I like independent comic because the creators aren't hamstrung by editorial dictates and they can take the story wherever they want. Whether that's telling their story in a 4 issue mini or in an ongoing title that lasts more than 20 years doesn't matter. The point is they have the freedom to tell the stories they want and effect real and lasting change, and in my view that makes them more interesting.
And to Savage Dragon and Kirk55555, there's nothing wrong with liking both. I gave up on comics for twenty years because of COIE (more or less--I still went back occasionally). There was also a long period of my life when I only read literary fiction and watched art movies. But something happened to me in my mid thirties that I realized I could enjoy both the comics and action films of my youth as well as what is considered to be more artistic works. And that realization has enriched my life.
In fact, the reason why I joined this board originally was because I was a Trekkie privately. I watched all the Trek series and Buffy/Angel and a number of other series, and secretly read science fiction that I could not admit to in my public life.
The iconic elements of the heroes of the big 2 are incredibly reassuring and when we get the great stories to go with them that makes it all the better. But it is always important to keep your mind open. You can love Taylor Swift and Led Zepplin and Beethoven and Miles Davis all at the same time.
In fact, the reason why I joined this board originally was because I was a Trekkie privately. I watched all the Trek series and Buffy/Angel and a number of other series, and secretly read science fiction that I could not admit to in my public life.
The iconic elements of the heroes of the big 2 are incredibly reassuring and when we get the great stories to go with them that makes it all the better. But it is always important to keep your mind open. You can love Taylor Swift and Led Zepplin and Beethoven and Miles Davis all at the same time.
I've never gotten the "they don't change" complaint about DC/Marvel characters. Who wants them to, I don't know, age and die? I certainly don't. Stuff like Superior Spider-Man or HYDRA Cap are examples of writers given too much leeway. I don't want writers to be able to do whatever they want. There is a hapy medium between DC's crazy New 52 editors being micromanaging a-holes, and some writer having no leash and doing whatever stupid thing they want. Writers having limits is, to me, the best way to make comics.
Even good writers tend to do stupid stuff when left alone too much. The Big 2 have never been perfect (not that anything is), but they're the best type of comics. A comic universe that has a decent degree of control exercised, but has the people in charge that are smart and open to some stuff is the best case scenario. Its far from the reality at times, especially for DC right now, but historically both DC and Marvel have published the best comics with that style.
Even good writers tend to do stupid stuff when left alone too much. The Big 2 have never been perfect (not that anything is), but they're the best type of comics. A comic universe that has a decent degree of control exercised, but has the people in charge that are smart and open to some stuff is the best case scenario. Its far from the reality at times, especially for DC right now, but historically both DC and Marvel have published the best comics with that style.
Whoa! Much of what you've written is quite good--but I draw the line at this Beethoven foolishness. Bruckner? Fine. But Beethoven? Pleeeaaassseee!
I actually read this issue because of the fuss--but we all know that last panel just leads to a bigger story, right? We all know that he's not really HYDRA?
I'm honestly shocked by the level of attention that one panel has received.
@kirk55555 Look, I like a good shared universe just as much as the next guy. I wouldn't be participating in this thread if I didn't. And yeah, there is something comforting about knowing that I'll always be able to come back to Superman, or Batman, or Spider-Man and they'll still be the same guys I always knew, but there is still a hell of a lot more to comics than just super-heroes and a shared universe.
I started off as strictly a super-hero guy, but over the years I've branched out and discovered some really good stuff, and I find myself much more excited by these new characters and stories than by anything Marvel and DC are putting out. It doesn't make you wrong for liking DC and Marvel better, and it doesn't make me wrong for finding independent comics more interesting. It's just a difference of opinion.
I started off as strictly a super-hero guy, but over the years I've branched out and discovered some really good stuff, and I find myself much more excited by these new characters and stories than by anything Marvel and DC are putting out. It doesn't make you wrong for liking DC and Marvel better, and it doesn't make me wrong for finding independent comics more interesting. It's just a difference of opinion.
I used to buy some on the indies way back in the day. A lot of First Comics stuff: American Flagg, Grim Jack, Jon Sable and Starslayer. Nexus and Badger. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ( yeah it was a comic first) Some other books too, but don't recall the titles.
Well, the writer says its not a fake out, brainwashing, a clone/robot/duplicate or Cap going undercover. I'm 99.999999999% sure he's lying through his teeth, but that's the official line. I'm personally ticked off because I think its a stupid twist, and Marvel (as much as I enjoy its universe) has been doing so many of these "shocking twists" over the last few years that its starting to wear me down as a reader. I know its not anything permanent, but I was looking forward to rejuvenated Steve getting a book.
So, the disappointment that he's not getting a normal story after so long combined with being completely fed up with Marvel's "shake ups" of individual characters is what's made me angry and frustrated about the whole HYDRA Cap thing. By itself, its stupid and a bit annoying but something that, a few years ago, I'd just roll my eyes and skip the book without much of a fuss. But, at this point, its another thing on the pile of stupid Marvel "twists"/"shake ups", and my ability to just ignore and not get worked up by things like HYDRA Cap is basically worn out. That's why I personally react badly to it, at least. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously.
I agree. Its not wrong to prefer Indy books, I'd just argue that there is nothing that makes them inherently superior to Big 2 books, and that its not like someone is going to "grow up" into Indy books or "grow out" of Big 2 books, which is the vibe I got from your earlier post.
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The 2000AD Franchise, specifically the Judge Dredd book is another example, sometimes refocused and subject the occassional change in style or tone, but AFAIK still the same continuity that origin'd in 1977, nearly forty years ago.
And they do them in real time, too. So the Judge Dredd in the 2000AD weekly has been active for 40 years in-universe, as well.
The American Dredd books have been largely reboots, though.
Well, pushing those mainstream limits gets you Alan Moores Swamp Thing. Not having those limits gets you Watchmen.
Truly creative people can produce great work in either situation. Because they're......creative !
My God, I swear I had a flashback to working in Nostalgia and Comics in the 1980's...
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5's, you ever read any Hellboy? you might like it. the first four or five trades are very good. it eventually becomes a much larger universe with spin off books and such. i'm not trying to beat you over the head with indy comics... just trying to think of things you may enjoy.
Well, I hate Watchmen, so that's just making my point stronger in my opinion. But, it doesn't really count anyway. DC did control Moore with that story, in that they refused to let him use Charlton characters. So, its not even really a DC book, its an Alan Moore original story with characters he created that DC happens to have the rights to (or at least it was just that, until recently). I've never read Moore's Swamp Thing, and probably won't. I seriously doubt that Moore was allowed to do anything that effected any part of the DC Universe outside of Swamp Thing anyway, and from what I know Swamp Thing wasn't a super popular character so DC probably didn't really care what Moore did with him anyway.
I actually have read some Hellboy, because the library had a bunch of the TPBs. I think I've read the first 3, maybe 4. They were ok, but its like basically every indy book i've ever read. By that I mean its ok by itself, but inferior to even very average Marvel or (pre-reboot) DC books. Plus, Mignola's art is weird, and the stories aren't ongoing, the comics are basically a bunch of vignette's taken from different times in Hellboy's life. I didn't like that part at all. I'm ok with flashback stories, but they need to establish a "present" to ground the series. Hellboy just seems to write a story in whatever era the writer feels like, there didn't seem to be any consistency.
In the end, I think Del Toro's movie did Hellboy better then the comics did. I actually liked both Hellboy movies a lot, which is the only reason I tried some of the comics. The Hellboy comics I read weren't a waste of time by any stretch, but I'd never pay for them or go out of my way to read them.