DC Cinematic Universe ( The James Gunn era)
- Thread starter Samurai8472
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In a recent podcast with Dax Shepard, Jesse Eisenberg says that he's lost work due to his portrayal of Lex Luthor in Batman V. Superman.
https://www.avclub.com/jesse-eisenberg-lex-luthor-hurt-his-career
https://www.avclub.com/jesse-eisenberg-lex-luthor-hurt-his-career
Actors are hurt in direct ways not only by poor performances but by involvement in projects that are badly received by audiences or within the industry. A lot of people fucked up making Showgirls - the megabucks writer (Joe Eszterhas), the big-name director (Paul Verhoeven) - but Elizabeth Berkley was not one of them. She turned in a decent performance fronting a train wreck. But hers was the only career derailed by it, because she was relatively unknown in films (had done a kid's TV show) and because it was her face (and other bits) that the audience saw and associated with the movie.
Maybe one day, people will realize that Warner Bros was the true villain in the DCEU’s failure all along.
Wonder Woman 1 was a success and positively received. Snyder worked on the story and executive produced it. WW84 was all Patty Jenkins. From the story, directing and reception. Wonder Woman 3 was cancelled after WW84 flopped. As of right now, there are no plans for a new Wonder Woman in the Gunnverse.
Suicide Squad 1 was a success financially. It even won WB an Academy Award for best Make-Up and Hairstyling. Thanks to Killer Croc, Harley and Joker. Snyder worked on that film as well. As it was more closely tied to his version of JL, before the execs at WB had it cut and edited to resemble Deadpool 1. Which also released that year.
James Gunn’s sequel was a box office bomb. A bomb so bad that even though Gunn is the head of DCU studios now. Gunn has said there are no plans to do another Suicide Squad film. Best we’ll get is Creature Commandos and Peacemaker season 2.
Aquaman 1 was a high success. The only billion dollar gross in the DCEU, and the last movie Snyder had anything to do with before he was fired. What did WB decide to do to capitalize on this film’s success? Wait 5 years to release a sequel and tell the whole world the film didn’t matter to the rebooted universe going forward; before it hit theaters. Aquaman 2 was a financial disappointment but there are worse performing films out there.
Such as Shazam 1 and Shazam 2. Shazam 1 never had any thunder. Released between Captain Marvel and Avengers Endgame. The first movie was a modest hit. The second movie was a disaster. Losing money big time compared to the first film (a recurring pattern of DCEU films) and losing to Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
Somehow, someway, people blame Shazam 2’s woes on Black Adam. Another dud in the DCEU. Black Adam did about as well as Aquaman 2 financially. Not a totally disaster like WW84, The Suicide Squad and Shazam 2, but not a profit like it needed to justify the Rock’s takeover.
Let’s talk about The Flash. A film James Gunn called one of the best comic book movies ever made. This was before he was officially the head the DCU. Gotta tow the company line. Outside of being stuck in development hell for years. Ezra Miller’s antics and criminal activity, put promoting this film in a real tough spot.The film was yet another box office bomb for the DCEU. As well as, being another character Gunn has said there are no plans to do a new movie for in the DCU.
Another casualty was Blue Beetle. I hated to see this movie fail. One of a number of niche properties Walter Hamada thought would be the next hit for the face of the DC brand.
Hamada’s other ideas for CBM included:
A Wonder Twins movie. Pre-production was cancelled early because they thought it was too niche. Ya think?
The Leslie Grace Batgirl movie. That was completed and then junked for a tax write-off by current WB chief executive David Zaslav.
The Sasha Calle Supergirl movie. Meant to replace Cavilman.
The New Gods movie with Ava Duvernay and Tom King. Tom King is now working on the Supergirl movie.
After years of saying they had plans for GL. They are finally moving ahead with a series on their Max streaming service.
JJ Abrams’ Black Superman movie with Ta Nehisi Coates. Announced back in 2019. This film still has not officially been cancelled but we all know it’s not happening.
JJ Abrams Justice League Dark movie.
Lastly, we can talk about Justice League. Theatrical and Director’s cut. WB lied and denied that there was different version of the film we got in theaters for years. When the world did see Zack Snyder’s Justice League, it was met with critic approval and fan approval. The only professional critic positively rated film in his Superman trilogy.
ZSJL also came out at a unique time for cbms. In 2021, there were 3 Justice League type properties released. Mark Millar’s Jupiter’s Leagcy on Netflix, the Eternals by the MCU and ZSJL by HBOMax. Eternals and Jupiter’s Leagcy were both rotten with critics. Eternals was also a box office bomb for Marvel. Only WB had access to the genuine article. Only WB had the Real McCoy. And they did nothing to capitalize on that moment. Not saying that Zack Snyder needed to comeback, but there was life in the direction WB had abandoned to pursue their scattershot approach. People wanted Avengers level ensembles. People wanted to see the A-Listers they were familiar with. Instead we got the series of niche movies nobody asked for.
This is all AFTER Hamada brought on WB’s directors from their horror series (Annabelle, It Follows, The Conjuring) to chart a new direction for the DC movies, keep costs down and maximize profits.
Next to Sony and their Spider-Man-Less Spider-Man movies. No other studio has dropped the ball as hard as WB has. Zack Snyder has been gone from WB since March 2017. Nearly 8 years now. I don’t think you can blame him for anything that happened after he left. It was all WB and they made the wrong call at every turn.
Wonder Woman 1 was a success and positively received. Snyder worked on the story and executive produced it. WW84 was all Patty Jenkins. From the story, directing and reception. Wonder Woman 3 was cancelled after WW84 flopped. As of right now, there are no plans for a new Wonder Woman in the Gunnverse.
Suicide Squad 1 was a success financially. It even won WB an Academy Award for best Make-Up and Hairstyling. Thanks to Killer Croc, Harley and Joker. Snyder worked on that film as well. As it was more closely tied to his version of JL, before the execs at WB had it cut and edited to resemble Deadpool 1. Which also released that year.
James Gunn’s sequel was a box office bomb. A bomb so bad that even though Gunn is the head of DCU studios now. Gunn has said there are no plans to do another Suicide Squad film. Best we’ll get is Creature Commandos and Peacemaker season 2.
Aquaman 1 was a high success. The only billion dollar gross in the DCEU, and the last movie Snyder had anything to do with before he was fired. What did WB decide to do to capitalize on this film’s success? Wait 5 years to release a sequel and tell the whole world the film didn’t matter to the rebooted universe going forward; before it hit theaters. Aquaman 2 was a financial disappointment but there are worse performing films out there.
Such as Shazam 1 and Shazam 2. Shazam 1 never had any thunder. Released between Captain Marvel and Avengers Endgame. The first movie was a modest hit. The second movie was a disaster. Losing money big time compared to the first film (a recurring pattern of DCEU films) and losing to Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
Somehow, someway, people blame Shazam 2’s woes on Black Adam. Another dud in the DCEU. Black Adam did about as well as Aquaman 2 financially. Not a totally disaster like WW84, The Suicide Squad and Shazam 2, but not a profit like it needed to justify the Rock’s takeover.
Let’s talk about The Flash. A film James Gunn called one of the best comic book movies ever made. This was before he was officially the head the DCU. Gotta tow the company line. Outside of being stuck in development hell for years. Ezra Miller’s antics and criminal activity, put promoting this film in a real tough spot.The film was yet another box office bomb for the DCEU. As well as, being another character Gunn has said there are no plans to do a new movie for in the DCU.
Another casualty was Blue Beetle. I hated to see this movie fail. One of a number of niche properties Walter Hamada thought would be the next hit for the face of the DC brand.
Hamada’s other ideas for CBM included:
A Wonder Twins movie. Pre-production was cancelled early because they thought it was too niche. Ya think?
The Leslie Grace Batgirl movie. That was completed and then junked for a tax write-off by current WB chief executive David Zaslav.
The Sasha Calle Supergirl movie. Meant to replace Cavilman.
The New Gods movie with Ava Duvernay and Tom King. Tom King is now working on the Supergirl movie.
After years of saying they had plans for GL. They are finally moving ahead with a series on their Max streaming service.
JJ Abrams’ Black Superman movie with Ta Nehisi Coates. Announced back in 2019. This film still has not officially been cancelled but we all know it’s not happening.
JJ Abrams Justice League Dark movie.
Lastly, we can talk about Justice League. Theatrical and Director’s cut. WB lied and denied that there was different version of the film we got in theaters for years. When the world did see Zack Snyder’s Justice League, it was met with critic approval and fan approval. The only professional critic positively rated film in his Superman trilogy.
ZSJL also came out at a unique time for cbms. In 2021, there were 3 Justice League type properties released. Mark Millar’s Jupiter’s Leagcy on Netflix, the Eternals by the MCU and ZSJL by HBOMax. Eternals and Jupiter’s Leagcy were both rotten with critics. Eternals was also a box office bomb for Marvel. Only WB had access to the genuine article. Only WB had the Real McCoy. And they did nothing to capitalize on that moment. Not saying that Zack Snyder needed to comeback, but there was life in the direction WB had abandoned to pursue their scattershot approach. People wanted Avengers level ensembles. People wanted to see the A-Listers they were familiar with. Instead we got the series of niche movies nobody asked for.
This is all AFTER Hamada brought on WB’s directors from their horror series (Annabelle, It Follows, The Conjuring) to chart a new direction for the DC movies, keep costs down and maximize profits.
Next to Sony and their Spider-Man-Less Spider-Man movies. No other studio has dropped the ball as hard as WB has. Zack Snyder has been gone from WB since March 2017. Nearly 8 years now. I don’t think you can blame him for anything that happened after he left. It was all WB and they made the wrong call at every turn.
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Huh? This is a completely nonsensical statement. It was public knowledge that WB was asking for heavy reshoots throughout the production of JL, and that they eventually had Joss Whedon take over the editing and reshoots and create a radically different final edit. Nobody "lied" about that, because it was widely known at the time. WB didn't "deny" the existence of Snyder's material; they just didn't like it, which is why they had Whedon replace it. They had no intention of creating an alternate cut. People forget that WB had been unhappy with Snyder ever since Batman v Superman flopped and were already phasing him out while JL was in production. Revisionist history pretends that Whedon was only brought in after Snyder left to mourn his daughter, but the truth is that Whedon was brought in as a script doctor well before then, which is why he was available to take over as director.
The only reason the Snyder Cut ever happened was because the COVID shutdown left WB without new material at a time when they were trying to launch their in-house streaming service, so they decided to let Snyder finish his cut and capitalize on the manufactured hype surrounding it. You're talking as if the Snyder Cut already existed as a complete film that was being hidden somehow, but that's ridiculous. They had to spend millions of dollars to let Snyder film some remaining bits of material and edit the film together. This was widely reported at the time, no lies, no denials, no secrets. The fact that it was meant as streaming content is presumably the reason they let Snyder pad it out to over 4 hours when it would've been a much better movie at half that length, since they wanted more content.
Nope.
It was a good YouTube video, though.
As they told Nicholas Meyer, "This is a business. If you want love, go home to your family."
I would also argue that Netflix didn't get a good return on its investment when they signed Snyder to a multi-picture/development deal. 'Army of the Dead' was well-received. 'Rebel Moon, Part One' underperformed, and 'Rebel Moon, Part 2' was dumped with little promotion. Even the two Rebel Moon 'Director's Cuts' didn't do much to move the bar. His animated series 'Twilight of the Gods' came and went, and it seems as though any future projects with Netflix are on 'hold'.
I sometimes wonder if WB was too quick to try and change direction on the DC movies, it seemed like the moment one movie under performed even the slightest bit, they went into a panic and completely changed all of their plans. At least Marvel has pretty much stuck to most of their plans even though a few of the latest movies has underperformed. As far as I can remember, they were even going to stick with Kang as their big bad after Quantmania underperformed and only changed to Robert Downey Jr. as Doom once Johnathan Majors' assholeness came to light.
Yep. The execs would’ve been under a huge amount of pressure to course correct, after three underperforming films.
A lot of moving parts beyond Snyder and Cavil.
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Just two different companies with two different philosophies. Beyond that, did Marvel have three straight out of the gate that underperformed? Or did they already have a major hit or two under their belt? Not saying this in a condescending manner. It is an honest question as I don’t really follow box office numbers and expectations as closely as others do.
Expectation is the route of all disappointment.
Man of Steel made $670 million worldwide. WB was expecting it to make $800 million. MOS made more than all Phase 1 MCU films and all X-Men movies released at that time. More importantly, it made more than the last Superman movie, Returns from 2006. A bonus for MOS, is that all those annoying product placements in the film helped pay for the cost of the film before it hit theaters. So that's all gross for WB and the theater chains.
Summer 2013 was supersaturated (no pun intended) with a lot of competitive action films.
Iron Man 3 - $1.2 billion - Top earner and first film post Avengers 1.
Fast and Furious 6 - $788 million - When Paul Walker was still alive and before the films got REALLY dumb. Also the film that got Gal Gadot the audition for WW.
MOS - $670 million
World War Z - $540 million
Star Trek Into Darkness - $467 million - JJ's second Wrath of Khan redux.
The Wolverine - $414 million - Preamble for DOFP.
In 2016 with BvS and Suicide Squad 1. WB was expecting a billion dollar gross from BvS. It fell short at $872 million. Suicide Squad was supposed to bring in GOTG 1 numbers. Which is came close to. GOTG 1 at $770 million and SS at $745 million.
After BvS, WB started meddling with the movies and didn't trust their hired creators. A combination of counting Marvel's money and wanting the same success without doing any of the work. Changing direction to mimic Marvel's formula, and benching their A-list characters to pursue films with B,C and Z list characters. 8 box office bombs in a row from the DCEU. For DC in general, that number moves to 9, if you include Joker Folie A Deux.
WB had something in 2016-2017, that just needed to be refined and polished. Instead they went with the scattershot approach. Hoping one of these new films would be the shot in the arm, face of the brand they needed.
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With Phase 1 Marvel. They had 2 underperformers. The Incredible Hulk and Captain America 1. Neither are bad films, but the audience didn't resonate with them. Hulk, largely due to the bad taste Ang Lee's 2003 Hulk left in people's mouth. Captain America was a modest hit. $370 million WW on a budget of $140 million.
Here is an example of Marvel leading the way and showing how it's done. After Avengers 1, focus groups gave their feedback of the characters in the film. Hawkeye and Captain America were reportedly audience's least favorite characters in that film. What did Marvel do? They went back to the drawing board and redefined Captain America for his 2nd and 3rd solo movies. Those becoming some of the best MCU films in the series. With Hawkeye, he was given a makeover in Avengers 2. That improved his character with audiences.
WB could have and should have done that with their characters. Think of all the money they spent running counter to their audience. They had something. A series of diminishing returns ruined all goodwill the public had for them as a brand. Now it's up to Superman 2025 to erase the previous failures and chart a new direction for this new universe.
Thank you, @Mudd for this quote you provided for what Paramount executive said to Nick Meyer.
"This is a business. If you want love, go home to your family."
Sony, Disney, WB, Paramount. All have treated their franchise IPs poorly. They are all losing money and going broke. They deserve their failure.
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Ticket sales weren’t the problem, the costs of the productions were.
The budgets were also in large part WB's decision. And MOS (and BvS) earned well over twice it's budget.
Snyder making bad choices in the films doesn't absolve WB of all responsibility for all of their own terrible decisions.
And that starts at the very latest with treating MoS like it was some kind of financial flop because of their stupid expectations that it would be the Dark Knight for Superman, when it was obviously far more similar to Batman Begins in terms of position and potential.
It's also entirely their responsibility that they responded to BvS' underperformance by completely butchering SS in the editing room despite SS having nothing to do with BvS. And it is by far most of all their responsibility that they let Snyder film JL even after they'd already lost confidence in him, but also refused to release the movie he actually filmed and instead once again turned to editing room butchering to try to turn the film into something completely different from what it was designed to be. And then rushed the film into theaters before the CGI work was even finished because they wouldn't get their bonuses if it didn't come out on time.
Firing Snyder after BvS would've made sense and probably been the best financial move. Firing him after JL would've made sense and almost certainly still been a better financial move than what they actually did.
Seems like they were damned either way. They spend a ton and the films underperform, it’s their fault. If they take a strict stance on the budget, and Snyder would say that they didn’t support his vision.
Possibility exists that Snyder simply wasn’t the right person to lead DC, on the big screen.
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