Yes, but given that this might mean they wouldn't be able to see or know him either, Kirk's family might say, "And you're okay with that? Why don't you fight for him anyway?"
David Marcus - What did Kirk know and when did he know it?
- Thread starter JonnyQuest037
- Start date
Because Kirk is not the type who forces himself into people's lives without them wanting it.
Putting up a custody battle (which are often nasty) would hurt David and Carol both, much worse than complying with Carol's wishes to stay away.
They'd still be upset, though. Understandably. If they knew.
A TOS movie. And there is the former un-named girlfriend of Kirk's mentioned in WNMHGB, who many fans (not me) believe to be Carol.
IIRC, Simon Pegg said the the Abrams-universe has a unique past, with differences from the prime universe's past.
Carol's father might never have been in Starfleet in the prime universe. It might have been grandpa Marcus who instilled a dislike of Starfleet in his grandson.
You've seen TOS, yes? Forcing himself into people's lives is Kirk's basic description.
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Then let them be upset - at Carol.
I'm aware of Pegg's theory. And I don't care.
I mean, he's not writing ST4, and until he does - until that theory actually makes it onscreen - it effectively doesn't exist.
When his Starfleet duties demand it, I suppose it is. But not here.
The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, and The Voyage Home were all Original Series movies. They weren't TNG or nuTrek. Admiral Marcus was a nuTrek character, so he is irrelevant to this discussion.
So?
If they have a relationship, great. If not, it's that family's business and nothing to do with Kirk and David and Carol. Some marriages and parental relationships can withstand the stresses of long periods apart and others can't.
Isn't that up to the judgment of the people involved, to say what kind of life they had and if it harmed them? Sometimes being apart is better for the child, if the parents have issues. This "staying together for the sake of the kids" isn't necessarily the best choice.
This has nothing to do with ST09.
Presumably the current move in some jurisdictions to enact laws guaranteeing visitation rights for grandparents would result in automatic rights of grandparents to have meaningful contact with their grandchildren by the 23rd century. At least I would hope so.
Exactly!
Well, one of the reasons for that is that in today's world, it's a lot harder financially to raise a child without the support of a second parent. As discussed above, that's not an issue for Carol.
Beyond that, you really seem to have a stick in your craw about single parents being a bad thing. Most people don't think there's anything wrong with it, even today. Some of the best parents I've known have done it on their own.
And you're reaching even further when you speculate about David's grandparents. The notion that grandparents have some sort of right to know (or even see) a grandchild, whether the parents are together or not, is just indefensible.
Bottom line, Kirk did the responsible thing by cooperating with what Carol wanted.
I was in agreement with you up to this point. I do think that grandparents should at least be able to know about their grandchildren and be given a chance to meet them (of course not all grandparents are interested in that).
When did allow a man to be a father to his child = lets be a couple, millions of folks manage to do the former everyday without being a couple, its called co-parenting.
My mother did it on her own, i knew who my father was, where he lived and even saw him. Being a single parent does not mean denying the child the right to know its other parent if said parent exists and there is no abuse involved. Kirk's anger on the death of his son is hypocritical, he lost the chance to know him when he agreed to Carol's selfish demand.
I can imagine the scene
David - Where's my dad mum,
Answer - I told him to stay away from you cos he was hung up on his Starfleet career. I wanted you in my world not his.
(utter selfishness)
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I think it's a desirable thing, and great if family dynamics allow for them to do that. I don't think they should have any legally enforceable right to do that. I've known too many grandparents who had nothing positive to contribute to their grandchildren's family life.
Given Kirk's cheating on the Kobyashi Maru and David's cheating on the protomatter, I'd say it didn't really make a difference whether Kirk was there or not.
I don't understand why "It was CAROL'S DECISION" is such a difficult concept. Do you honestly think that if she had run into so much trouble - or if David had - that they needed Kirk's help, he would have refused to help them?
Kirk's anger isn't hypocritical. He's mourning the son he didn't know before, the son he was just getting to know, and the son he was looking forward to knowing throughout the next several decades.
He has the right to grieve for his son.
My two sets of grandparents really didn't like each other. It was actual hatred on the part of my mom's mother toward my dad's mother - who was the grandmother who raised me, and the one who I preferred to be with. There were two years of my childhood when my dad's girlfriend actively tried to keep me and my grandparents (his parents) apart.
If there had been any kind of "grandparents' rights" back then (in the '70s), I would have wanted my grandparents to have that as a means to get me back where I belonged - with them.
As for David's situation, we can only speculate about whether or not he had a relationship with Carol's parents or whether Kirk's family even knew of his existence.
I understand the concept , I just disagree with it.
Exactly.
Yes, she did, but to Carol's credit she's fully aware of it and acknowledges it. ("You had your world, and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine.") She's obviously thought about this a lot over the years, and she's still convinced that she made the right decision.
Hmmm... Perhaps that's where David got his dislike of the military from.
...Where's the "Wild Applause" emoji?
Yeah. According to Scotty in GEN, Kirk always said, "If something's important enough, you make the time." And judging from Kirk's closeness to his sister-in-law in "Operation: Annihilate!", and the fact that his father saw him take command of the Enterprise according to ST09, as well as his brother's family according to "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", Kirk comes from a pretty close-knit family.
Yeah. I see no reason not to believe that Admiral Marcus existed in the Prime timeline as well. The really interesting question, I think, is was Carol in Starfleet at some point as well? She certainly seems to be sympathetic to them. ("Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of these events!")
Maybe I should start a poll for that question!
Let's hope!
I heard he got pretty beat up by Klingons and got so many prosthetic replacement parts that he became a cybernetic security officer. "Roboguard," I think they called him.
This is another reason I like to believe that Kirk didn't find out about David until after TOS. It doesn't raise these questions.
Exactly.
Interesting theory! It certainly puts David bringing up Kirk in his first scene in a new light.
Agreed!
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Bottom line no, What Kirk was demonstrating was a complete lack of (parental) responsibility.
He is/was David's father, any willingness on Carol's part to absolve Kirk of that responsibility has no baring on Kirk's decision not to be a responsible parent and be a interactive part of David's life.
This isn't about Carol and her wishes, it's about Kirk's decision to walk away from David. Not to make David an important aspect of his life.
I not saying that Kirk resign his commission and buy a house up the street for where David lives with his mother. But Kirk could spend his leaves with David, exchange regular messages. Let David know, truly know, that his father cares for him.
Which Kirk doesn't do.
The US family court system doesn't agree with you, grandparents decades ago were found to have a legal right to see and interact with their grandchildren.
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Just a data point of the original intent before some bits got reshot...
125 ANGLE FAVORING DAVID
You're the sonavabitch who
committed mass murder up there.
He raises the knife --
KIRKI'm Admiral Kirk...
We were still there, you dumb
bastard! We could hear the screams
all the way to the transporter room --
Again he raises the knife --
Where's Dr. Marcus --
I'm Doctor Marcus!
Carol reaches the tunnel entrance to the cave --
David --
Mother, go back!
Carol sees Kirk --
Jim --
Go back. I'm going to kill him.
You do that and you'll have murdered
your father.
All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
phaser from Jedda.
126 NEW ANGLE (FORMERLY SCENE 134)
I'll hold onto this.
But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
up, trying to smile and touches his hair --
You've got a little grey --
She can't. Kirk takes her and holds her tightly, look-
ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
stunned, looking back.
Carol. Is that true?
She nods --
Why didn't you tell me?
She's making it up! My father was
Professor --
David, you're just making this
harder --
I'm afraid it's even harder than you
think, Doctor.
He and Chekov have their phasers trained on them.
They walk by a group of crates. It all happens
fast: David leaps out and tackles Kirk, throwing him to
the ground and landing atop him, a knife at his throat.
At the same time, Bones and Saavik reach for their
phasers, but Jedda, already armed, steps out. He has
them covered and helpless.
fast: David leaps out and tackles Kirk, throwing him to
the ground and landing atop him, a knife at his throat.
At the same time, Bones and Saavik reach for their
phasers, but Jedda, already armed, steps out. He has
them covered and helpless.
DAVID
committed mass murder up there.
He raises the knife --
KIRK
DAVID
bastard! We could hear the screams
all the way to the transporter room --
Again he raises the knife --
KIRK
DAVID
Carol reaches the tunnel entrance to the cave --
CAROL
DAVID
Carol sees Kirk --
CAROL
DAVID
CAROL
(takes a breath)your father.
All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
phaser from Jedda.
TERRELL
(cool)But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
up, trying to smile and touches his hair --
CAROL
ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
stunned, looking back.
KIRK
She nods --
KIRK
(continuing)DAVID
Professor --
CAROL
harder --
TERRELL
think, Doctor.
He and Chekov have their phasers trained on them.
There's no such thing as a US family court system; family law varies from state to state. All states do recognize grandparent visitation rights, but not in the same way, and only ever under specific circumstances. Generally speaking, it can't be awarded against a parent's will unless the parents are unfit, divorced, or deceased, and the burden falls on the grandparents to prove that it's in the best interests of the child. This is necessary to be consistent with Troxel v Granville (2000), a Supreme Court case establishing that parental decision-making about the upbringing of one's child(ren) is a fundamental right protected by the due process clause of the 14th Amendment, deference to which can only be overcome by a compelling public interest.
(Personally I think the presumption of the fitness of (biological) parents is something of a blind spot in American law, and is too hard to rebut and too often placed ahead of the actual best interests of the child. That said, though, it still can and does take precedence over any claims from grandparents.)
I took a look at my Star Trek II Fotonovel last night (I honestly forgot that I even owned a copy), and they have Kirk's line to Carol as "Why didn't you tell me?"
In Vonda McIntyre's novelization, Kirk actually says, "Why didn't you tell me?" to Carol twice, once in the scene that Maurice posted above, and again in the Kirk/Carol scene afterwards. There, Carol responds with, "Jim... Why didn't you ask? [...] You've known for a long time that I have a son. You know his age, or you could have found out without any trouble. And I don't believe they take you into Starfleet Academy unless you can count." Kirk says that it never even occurred to him to ask, and Carol says she once swore to never tell either of them.
It's interesting that even the tie-in products of the time had confusion about the line.
In Vonda McIntyre's novelization, Kirk actually says, "Why didn't you tell me?" to Carol twice, once in the scene that Maurice posted above, and again in the Kirk/Carol scene afterwards. There, Carol responds with, "Jim... Why didn't you ask? [...] You've known for a long time that I have a son. You know his age, or you could have found out without any trouble. And I don't believe they take you into Starfleet Academy unless you can count." Kirk says that it never even occurred to him to ask, and Carol says she once swore to never tell either of them.
It's interesting that even the tie-in products of the time had confusion about the line.
So it seems likely that the original line was "Why didn't you tell me?" (as in, Kirk didn't know that he had a son) and it was changed to "Why didn't you tell him?" (as in, Kirk knew, but David didn't) during the reshoots.
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