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David Fincher's The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo

Girl With The Dragon Tattoo wants you to actually believe you have to rape a woman twice in order to get her interested in catching a serial killer. Lord knows what would have happened if Lisbeth wasn't raped or the serial killer only targeted men.

That's silly, in my opinion. I'm not going to argue about any brilliant plot machinations conceived by Stieg Larrsson, because while the book may have a riveting mystery on a purely surface level, it's a terribly written piece of trash that is beach reading at best. What it does well is spend time building up character profiles, motivations and interactions. So I'm not going to argue too much against "raped woman has justification for revenge" and how that effects an audience.

However, to claim the intent of the film is that it wants you to believe a woman MUST be raped twice in order to have her concerned about catching serial killers is an intent I believe you're placing on it. What the rapes do is create a partial character profile and provide partial motivation. Lisbeth has no reason to want to help Mikael, her victimization gives her reason to.

Are there others ways to do this? Yes. Would a better writer have created more ways? Yes. Are there other motivations within the film? Yes. Are they shown as being more important? Not really. But Larrsson also wanted to portray the brutality that is often seen in state wardship and how the (arguably) mentally ill or those in vulnerable positions (especially women) are often treated by those in power, and by the patriarchy, and how that can often be predatory. So he wanted to work this plot element into the book.

Again, is it a good story? No. The characterizations are interesting to me. But the book is not well written at all. I think Zaillian, Fincher et al made an admirable attempt at an adaption, though. I do not think anyone involved is TELLING you a woman MUST be raped to CARE about murderers, though.
 
As vile as the social worker was, he wasn't trying to hurt her.

:wtf:

That's all I have to say.

Is :wtf: .

^^ No kidding.. :wtf:

I see where one could think that, based on the way he conversed with her before and after (in the new movie)... He was looking to try and seem sympathetic to her situation..

But in both versions of the movie, Bjurman used sexual assualt/rape with two purposes.. Lisbeth is a strong-willed individual who needs be brought under heel, after having been basically free to do as she chose to do under her old and now incapacitated gaurdian..

So Bjurman used rape to bring her under submission, so to speak, in a way that would make her feel powerless. The second purpose beyond bringing her under heel was as simple as him getting his sick rocks off.. Killing two birds with one stone, if you will.

So was he trying to physically damage her in a permanent way? No.. But he was definetely trying to mentally damage her in a way that would keep her in line.

And don't forget... While her former gaurdian knew that she is an intelligent, functioning adult with emotional challenges, Bjurman only has the court documents to go by and believes she is not fully capable to function as an adult, making her even easier to bring into submission.
 
However, to claim the intent of the film is that it wants you to believe a woman MUST be raped twice in order to have her concerned about catching serial killers is an intent I believe you're placing on it.
No kidding. It's still how they frame it for Lisbeth and they do it with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face. Having her sleep with a woman right away. Having Lisbeth disinterested until Mikael frames it as catching a 'killer of women'.

Hell, Lisbeth is repeatedly shown as apathetic (I believe we even get a clinical diagnosis at one point). That's why her buying a biking jacket for Mikael was such a big deal.
 
The woman that Lisbeth sleeps with after her rape I believe is the closest thing she has to a friend. Hardly some random woman. The jacket was bought as a gesture of friendship. Also once again...the point of the rape scene isn't exploitation, it is to make you feel sympathy towards women in general who go through this kind of physical abuse at the hands of men. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable. Remember that the original Swedish title of the first book/movie is called "Men Who Hate Women". It is called this for a reason.
 
However, to claim the intent of the film is that it wants you to believe a woman MUST be raped twice in order to have her concerned about catching serial killers is an intent I believe you're placing on it.
No kidding. It's still how they frame it for Lisbeth and they do it with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face. Having her sleep with a woman right away. Having Lisbeth disinterested until Mikael frames it as catching a 'killer of women'.

Hell, Lisbeth is repeatedly shown as apathetic (I believe we even get a clinical diagnosis at one point). That's why her buying a biking jacket for Mikael was such a big deal.

I'm not sure what the context is for "having her sleep with a woman right away." What does that have to do with the rest of your statement?

And as for the apathy, clinical or not...WHY do you think she would be so apathetic? What's the cause of that, it's root? How would that affect her life? And how would that steer her decisions and character arc during the time of her life portrayed in the film. The character is not just apathetic for no reason and without cause, merely to serve the plot.

And Lisbeth did far more than just buy Mikael a jacket, and I even think there's even more to her buying that jacket than just "buying a jacket."
 
I'm not sure what the context is for "having her sleep with a woman right away." What does that have to do with the rest of your statement?
Well, what do you think the meaning of having Lisbeth immediately sleep with a woman following a brutal rape was (though I suppose given the overall level of writing we can't dismiss it as just a lipstick lesbian scene pandering to the male audience)?

And as for the apathy, clinical or not...WHY do you think she would be so apathetic? What's the cause of that, it's root?
It's not really my job to create a story where one isn't presented.

And Lisbeth did far more than just buy Mikael a jacket, and I even think there's even more to her buying that jacket than just "buying a jacket."
We're told it's a perfect gift for a special person then it literally gets thrown in the garbage after Lisbeth is spurned so, yeah, not exactly subtle on the whole symbolism thing.
 
^ I like how you've been ignoring me while debating with T'Biao when we've been essentially saying the same things. I think it is safe to say that both of us disagree about various meanings of the film are.
 
The woman that Lisbeth sleeps with after her rape I believe is the closest thing she has to a friend. Hardly some random woman.
And she doesn't even get so much as a line of dialog let alone a name. :lol:

The jacket was bought as a gesture of friendship.
It was a gesture but definitely not one of friendship. You don't throw away an expensive custom made gift for a friend because you saw them kiss someone.
 
You do if you feel jealous...and Lisbeth is damaged goods. What way she should have felt? Kept the jacket in the hopes she would give it to him another time? Remember that Lisbeth is someone who isn't used to revealing her feelings or lowering her shields for lack of a better term. She felt hurt.
 
I like how you've been ignoring me while debating with T'Biao when we've been essentially saying the same things.
Sorry, I haven't mastered the ability of posting two replies at the same time. :lol:

And as far as the rape thing goes, if the only way a writer feels they can create sympathy for a character is to brutally rape her then they really need to rethink what they're writing.
 
It wasn't to create sympathy for just Lisbeth, but all women who go through this, Lisbeth is his central character that goes through it along with the other absuses that she has gone through in her life, that was the point of it. I'm not sure how else he was supposed to convey his message. Again the book is originally titled "Men Who Hate Women". The entire trilogy deals with themes stemming from that. I thought that was quite clearly defined in the novels and in the original films.

It has become obvious like I said before that we disagree on how this was handled at least in the Fincher film. Continuing to argue about it isn't going to get us anywhere.
 
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