Dating the Eugenics Wars

[blssdwlf]

You can narrow down to the end of the war to approx 1996 when Khan was overthrown.

The end of Khan's war, sure. But the overthrowing of Mussolini didn't actually end any wars. Or the (first) overthrowing of Napoleon, for that matter. The superman business might have been a fairly small part of the bigger conflict.

CHAKOTAY: Sub-space technology shouldn't exist for another hundred years or so. Which is curious since I thought for TNG that warp drive (2063) is subspace technology. I guess not?

I guess 70 years is "100 or so".

Which would still mean that Cochrane's first flight would not be preceded by lesser experiments in subspace technology. And that's a bit strange.

Timo Saloniemi

Mussolini was not the last of the axis leaders. The equivalent would be the emporer of Japan. Khan's overthrow was the end of the Eugenics Wars (and the last world war.)

Strange for sure on the subspace dating.

 

[Timo]

Khan's overthrow was the end of the Eugenics Wars (and the last world war.)

Khan's overthrow was the end of an Eugenics War. But McCoy used a plural there. Perhaps world war = eugenics war, in which case Khan's would have been the last by either name. But it's equally possible that the last of world wars = eugenics wars, in which case the end of one eugenics war wouldn't conclude the last world war yet.

As pointed out, eugenics wars have been fairly common in the real 20th century, and eugenics is a continuing theme in the TOS era, with Kodos' antics, "The Infinite Vulcan" and assorted other racist ideas for evidence. It thus shouldn't stretch credibility to stretch Eugenics Wars to cover a century, all the way from Hitler to Green.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

The episode reads more like: The Last World War was the war to end the tyranny of the eugenics who seized power over 40 nations. It consisted of many wars (that can be called the Eugenics Wars) across the world that concluded with the overthrow of Khan in 1996

Although you could say the eugenics wars would be fairly common in the real 20th century - "Space Seed" clearly points it to only the genetic supermen like Khan.

It's very possible that a preceding World War like World War 3 (or even 4...) could've setup the conditions for the 1993 eugenics take over and their tyrannical rule and constant warring between each other triggered a the last World War

Another thing I noticed - in "Assignment: Earth" and "The Doomsday Machine" that the use of Hydrogen weapons were averted during the 20th century which imply that in TOS, World War 3 and/or the Eugenics Wars were most likely fought with conventional weaponry. In TNG, World War 3 appears to be a nuclear war...

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And IMHO we have every excuse to choose and believe that McCoy was contradicting Spock rather than agreeing with him on the name of the war that was going on in the mid-1990s.

The entire teaser for "Space Seed" consists of our heroes contradicting each other, after all. First, Kirk doubts Spock's sensor readings (!). Then, Spock insists it's not an Earth vessel, and seconds later Uhura tells that it's sending in Earth Morse code. Kirk says it's a DY-500 and Spock contradicts him with his DY-100 knowledge. Kirk insists it must be on automatic and McCoy detects heartbeats. He says those can't be human and we know how that turns out...

Early on in this chain of contradictions, Spock asks if Kirk takes pleasure in contradicting, and Kirk admits to it. But when Spock in turn defeats Kirk in the DY-whatever argument, he admits to no pleasure (the big fake!); if McCoy caught him on fumbling his Earth history, he would obviously display no displeasure beyond the obligatory eyebrow-lifting, which we do get.

Significantly, this single exchange in "Space Seed" is the only bit connecting WWIII "directly" with the Eugenics Wars. By dismissing it, we are free to define WWIII as we please.

It's a neat theory, but where it falls apart for me is that McCoy would take great pleasure in contradicting Spock on a point of human history. But he doesn't do that. He says "The Eugenic Wars" in a casual, offhand tone that he seems like he's agreeing with Spock and just expanding on the information already provided., the same way I would reply with "The War To End All Wars" if you mentioned World War I or "Operation Desert Storm" if you mentioned the first Gulf War.

Since McCoy passing up an opportunity to gloat over correcting Spock on a significant detail of Earth's history would be light years out of character for him, ergo... The Eugenic Wars and WWIII are one in the same.*

*At least as far as the original intent of TOS and "Space Seed" is concerned, that is. Trek from TNG on makes it pretty clear that WWIII and the Eugenics Wars were two different things.

 

[T'Girl]

Khan's overthrow was the end of an Eugenics War. But McCoy used a plural there.

There would seem to have been more than a single "Eugenics War," In the Enterprise episode Hatchery, Archer mention that his grandfather fought in the Eugenics War in Africa (the gazelle story). This was in the year 2154, and Archer was in his early forties. So his grandfather's Eugenics War would have been in what year?

Grandfather . noun . 1. The father of one's mother or father.

 

[Rojixus]

I thought it was Archer's great-grandfather.

 

[T'Girl]

And so it was, my mistake. Still seem like too long a stretch of years for even Archer's great-grandfather to have been of fighting age in the mid-1990's.

Now around 2085 or so?

 

[Rojixus]

Here's my take on the Eugenics Wars and World War III:

After Khan and the other tyrants were overthrown, the Eugenics Wars continued as a series of insurgencies and guerrilla wars that lasted into the 21st century. Future historians will call these conflicts World War III just as some historians today wish to call the Cold War World War III (incidentally, these same historians wish to call the War on Terror World War IV). In short, I'm saying that the Eugenics Wars and World War Three are one and the same.

Of course, there may be those in the 23rd century who wish to split the Eugenics Wars/World War III into their own separate conflicts, that's why Spock gives death tolls from Earth's "first three world wars". By the 24th century, this viewpoint may have gone out the window and the whole conflict is once again grouped together as WWIII.

 

[blssdwlf]

^Or The Eugenics Wars is World War 5, counting the Cold War and the War on Terror

For the TNG/DS9 Timeline it would appear that the Eugenics Wars happened alot later than in TOS...

"Doctor Bashir, I Presume"

BENNETT: I don't think so. Two hundred years ago we tried to improve the species through DNA resequencing, and what did we get for our trouble? The Eugenics Wars.

That would put it at 2170 something (or after World War 3 in 2050s)...

 

[Rojixus]

^Or The Eugenics Wars is World War 5, counting the Cold War and the War on Terror

For the TNG/DS9 Timeline it would appear that the Eugenics Wars happened alot later than in TOS...

"Doctor Bashir, I Presume"

BENNETT: I don't think so. Two hundred years ago we tried to improve the species through DNA resequencing, and what did we get for our trouble? The Eugenics Wars.

That would put it at 2170 something (or after World War 3 in 2050s)...

Perhaps Bennett misspoke and meant to say three hundred years ago. Or we can assume Earth scientists again tried to genetically engineer humans and that business resulted in the Eugenics Wars Part Two.

 

[BillJ]

^Or The Eugenics Wars is World War 5, counting the Cold War and the War on Terror

For the TNG/DS9 Timeline it would appear that the Eugenics Wars happened alot later than in TOS...

"Doctor Bashir, I Presume"

BENNETT: I don't think so. Two hundred years ago we tried to improve the species through DNA resequencing, and what did we get for our trouble? The Eugenics Wars.

That would put it at 2170 something (or after World War 3 in 2050s)...

Perhaps Bennett misspoke and meant to say three hundred years ago. Or we can assume Earth scientists again tried to genetically engineer humans and that business resulted in the Eugenics Wars Part Two.

I'm pretty sure the writer admitted it was simply a mistake and that it was suppose to be three hundred.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Yep, it was just a typo.

 

[T'Girl]

Wouldn't such a typo still place the particular Eugenics War Bennett was referring to around 2070?

 

[Skywalker]

Archer was born in 2112, and his father Henry was presumably born in the 2070s (that's just my guess, however). So if that's correct, Archer's great-grandfather probably wouldn't have been born until the 2010s or 2020s. Going by Archer's dating, the Eugenics Wars his great-grandfather fought in would have occurred sometime between the 2030s and 2050s.

 

[BillJ]

Wouldn't such a typo still place the particular Eugenics War Bennett was referring to around 2070?

Maybe Bennett (and the writer) are just simply not good at math?

 

[Skywalker]

Or maybe Bennett, like most people in general conversation, just used a ballpark figure because he either didn't know or didn't care what was the precise number of years. How many people right now would say the Declaration of Independence was signed 200 years ago versus the amount of people who would say it was signed 235 years ago?

 

[Sci]

Archer was born in 2112, and his father Henry was presumably born in the 2070s (that's just my guess, however). So if that's correct, Archer's great-grandfather probably wouldn't have been born until the 2010s or 2020s.

Not necessarily. It's possible, for instance, that Archer's great-grandfather was born circa 1975, served in the Eugenics Wars in the mid-1990s, and that his child (Henry's parent) was born circa 2025 (when great-granddad was around 50), and that Henry was subsequently born circa 2075 (when Henry's parent would have been around 50), with Henry then being around 42 when Jonathan was born.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wouldn't such a typo still place the particular Eugenics War Bennett was referring to around 2070?

No.

 

[Skywalker]

Archer was born in 2112, and his father Henry was presumably born in the 2070s (that's just my guess, however). So if that's correct, Archer's great-grandfather probably wouldn't have been born until the 2010s or 2020s.

Not necessarily. It's possible, for instance, that Archer's great-grandfather was born circa 1975, served in the Eugenics Wars in the mid-1990s, and that his child (Henry's parent) was born circa 2025 (when great-granddad was around 50), and that Henry was subsequently born circa 2075 (when Henry's parent would have been around 50), with Henry then being around 42 when Jonathan was born.

It's possible, sure, but kind of stretching it. Then again, Jonathan was (as far as we know) still childless as of 2155, so maybe it's an Archer family tradition to wait until you're in your forties or fifties to have children.

I do recall Henry being described as being in his 40s in one of the scripts for "Broken Bow," and his two scenes took place in (I think) 2121. But I know, if it's not on-screen it doesn't count, etc.

 

[Sci]

Archer was born in 2112, and his father Henry was presumably born in the 2070s (that's just my guess, however). So if that's correct, Archer's great-grandfather probably wouldn't have been born until the 2010s or 2020s.

Not necessarily. It's possible, for instance, that Archer's great-grandfather was born circa 1975, served in the Eugenics Wars in the mid-1990s, and that his child (Henry's parent) was born circa 2025 (when great-granddad was around 50), and that Henry was subsequently born circa 2075 (when Henry's parent would have been around 50), with Henry then being around 42 when Jonathan was born.

It's possible, sure, but kind of stretching it.

I don't think so. Something like that fits the canonical evidence -- we know from "Space Speed" that the Eugenics Wars were fought circa 1992 to 1996, and we know that Archer's great-grandfather fought in the Eugenics Wars. So those factoids demand a relatively late fatherhood for Archer's great-grandfather and grandparent.