Dating Picard

[Christopher]

I'm not. In my head, the Enterprise bridge (and exterior) has always looked the way it did/does in Discovery and SNW. The reason it looked the way it did in the 60s is because we didn't have TVs that were high definition enough to see it properly

I think that was always the intent. It was implicitly the idea behind TMP as well. Sure, the new ship is a refit, but it doesn't make sense to assume that literally every piece of technology was drastically redesigned simultaneously. Upgrades are usually more gradual than that. I think the idea was that if we'd seen the original ship with better "resolution," we would've seen that it had hull plating, reaction control thrusters, docking ports, etc. like the TMP ship did.

The reason "Relics" and "Trials and Tribble-ations" recreated the TOS sets exactly was because they had to match stock footage from TOS. ("Relics" used a stock shot for the wide view of the bridge, since they only had the budget to rebuild the turbolift alcove and one console, and to rent fan replicas of the command chair and helm station.) And the sets in "In a Mirror, Darkly" were expansions of the sets used in the previous productions. If they hadn't been operating under those limits and had been able to start from scratch, they might've updated the sets too, though perhaps not to the same degree that DSC & SNW have.

 

[Sci]

Terry Matalas continuing the fine tradition of Star Trek writers who can't do math to save their lives.

 

[fireproof78]

Math sucks.

Still mad about all the math at my company's employee appreciation banquet.

 

[drt]

I'm convinced that this season was intended to be set during 2407 (as initially claimed on Twitter) when it was filmed, and then someone realized that that date didn't work for the 250th Frontier Day, so they bumped it back in post-production to 2401, creating serious continuity problems with Jack's age and the timing of season 2.

It’s funny that they decided to move it up six years, instead of back four. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with Frontier Day referring to the foundation of the Federation. Or just leave it in 2407 and retcon the end of the Romulan War (which I’m not sure was ever canonically established anyway) and have it be the anniversary of the combined Starfleet setting out on new voyages of exploration following that conflict.

 

[Ronin'sCreamyCandle]

Picard comes off as someone to avoid entering a relationship at all cost.

 

[Dukhat]

Terry Matalas continuing the fine tradition of Star Trek writers who can't do math to save their lives.

i don’t think it’s a matter of them not being able to do math. I think they’re well aware that their math doesn’t work, and went with it anyway.

The Earth Starfleet existed at least as far back as 2143, during the NX prototype project, and must have existed even further back, as Archer & Robinson were already commanders and Forrest was already a commodore in 2143. And of course the Federation Starfleet was founded in 2161. So the 'modified' date of 2151 being the '250th anniversary of Starfleet' (Picard's own words) simply doesn't work in this context if the present year is 2401, and I'm sure they knew that. The fact that 2151 coincides with the launching of the NX-01 was just something they used to justify the changed premise of Frontier Day (which I would bet good money on was originally supposed to be the foundation of the UFP.)

 

[Christopher]

What I don't get is, why didn't they settle on a proper date for Frontier Day while they were writing the season, instead of evidently changing their minds in post-production?

 

[Christopher]

Okay, after today's episode, I'm giving up on trying to reconcile with the 2401 date and have decided to assume it's "actually" in 2411.

Spoiler: "The Bounty"

There is no way that Alton Soong could have aged as much as he appeared in that hologram in less than two years, let alone have done all that work to create the new Data and have him instituted as Daystrom Station's security AI.

 

[Tuskin38]

Spoiler

Worf said he hasn’t seen Picard in 11 years. That would be 2390. 11 years from 2411 wouldn’t make any sense.

Spoiler: "The Bounty"

There is no way that Alton Soong could have aged as much as he appeared in that hologram in less than two years, let alone have done all that work to create the new Data and have him instituted as Daystrom Station's security AI.

Spoiler

Why not? He had an entire planet of synths to help him.

 

[Christopher]

Spoiler

Worf said he hasn’t seen Picard in 11 years. That would be 2390. 11 years from 2411 wouldn’t make any sense.

Spoiler

Why not? No reason they couldn't have stayed in touch for a decade longer. I don't think there's anything in season 1 or 2 that conflicts with Picard having seen Worf at least briefly in 2400.

If there is a problem there, I'd be willing to go with 2407, but I'd need something in that year for Frontier Day to be the anniversary of.

Spoiler

Why not? He had an entire planet of synths to help him.

Spoiler

Help him age rapidly??

 

[Tuskin38]

Spoiler

Help him age rapidly??

I was obviously not referring to that part

 

[Christopher]

I was obviously not referring to that part

But it's the more important part, the thing that convinced me all the more that there was no way this season was meant to be in 2401 when it was written and filmed.

 

[Tuskin38]

I disagree completely

 

[FederationHistorian]

Spoiler

Worf said he hasn’t seen Picard in 11 years. That would be 2390. 11 years from 2411 wouldn’t make any sense.

Spoiler

Since Picard says to Ro in the previous episode that he was rehearsing his response to her for 30 years, and TNG S& was in 2371, PIC S3 is in 2401.

Better off to say that Riker goofed and meant to say the 240th anniversary instead of 250th anniversary.

 

[Tuskin38]

Spoiler

Since Picard says to Ro in the previous episode that he was rehearsing his response to her for 30 years, and TNG S& was in 2371, PIC S3 is in 2401.

Better off to say that Riker goofed and meant to say the 240th anniversary instead of 250th anniversary.

Spoiler

Picard was rounding. TNG Season 7 was in 2370, not 71

Terry says the 250th is celebrating the launch of the NX-01, so 250th anniversary still works.

I think the writers just forgot Starfleet existed before the Enterprise launched.

Or they're treating it like American Independence Day, where it celebrates the signing of the Declaration, not the actual gaining of Independence. The launch of the NX-01 is more symbolic to Starfleet than the actual founding date of Starfleet

 

[Tomalak]

I initially had similar thoughts to Christopher, but on reflection I like 2401 because it aligns with our world. We haven't seen (most of) these characters for twenty years, and likewise in-universe two decades have passed. This was clearly in the minds of the writers.

I actually don't think it makes sense as 2411, because presumably an event marking the founding of the Federation would be called... Federation Day? Sure, they could both be the same year, but the launch of the NX-01 makes perfect sense given that it's about Starfleet and exploring the final frontier.

2411 would also introduce further issues, such as Picard's remark about his "twenty year old Enterprise-D comm badge", which is already nonsense.

It doesn't feel like a decade has passed for Raffi and Seven either, and I don't get the impression Seven has been serving with Shaw for long, given the apparent lack of trust or rapport.

Spoiler

I can buy Soong developing a new golem in 18 months, as he wasn't starting from scratch, and clearly the work hadn't finished. He may have had a degenerative illness that made him look older.

The only thing that doesn't quite work is Jack's age, although that's been left vague enough to let it slide. The main issue was casting an actor in his thirties, but that wouldn't be the first time in TV history. If I can willingly accept warp drive and transporters, I can accept Jack Crusher is 21.

I don't think it would have hurt to put a little distance between season 2 and 3, perhaps a full year or so rather than the few months it apparently has been.

But as continuity issues go, this one is pretty easy to reconcile.

 

[Christopher]

I initially had similar thoughts to Christopher, but on reflection I like 2401 because it aligns with our world. We haven't seen (most of) these characters for twenty years, and likewise in-universe two decades have passed. This was clearly in the minds of the writers.

That thinking is how we got "The Enterprise is twenty years old" in ST III, though. Sometimes real-world dates aren't a good fit for the story chronology.

I actually don't think it makes sense as 2411, because presumably an event marking the founding of the Federation would be called... Federation Day? Sure, they could both be the same year, but the launch of the NX-01 makes perfect sense given that it's about Starfleet and exploring the final frontier.

Good point, but I can't buy 2401 either. The initial Instagram post about the Titan-A said it was launched in 2402, so if it had been under Shaw's command for five years, that would make it 2407, which is reasonably consistent with the evidence.

In short, there is no perfect answer, due to the conflicting evidence. But the 2401 date they've settled on is the one that creates the most problems. If we go with Jack's stated age of 24-25, then we'd have to be at least 25 years after Nemesis, or at least 2404. Anything within a few years after that seems like the best fit to the various data points. The only reason I'm going with 2411 is that I can't think of another plausible date to be the 250th anniversary of Starfleet's founding.

Although it's been suggested that it could be from the founding of the Coalition of Planets Starfleet, perhaps, because it would be the first multispecies fleet and thus the true antecedent of the Federation Starfleet. That could've been founded anytime after "Terra Prime," which would put the anniversary in 2405 at the earliest. That works.

It doesn't feel like a decade has passed for Raffi and Seven either, and I don't get the impression Seven has been serving with Shaw for long, given the apparent lack of trust or rapport.

Yeah, but there's no plausible way she gets from a new Starfleet recruit to a first officer/commander in a matter of months (let alone a negative number of months, since we've somehow gone from October 2401 in season 2 to April 2401 in season 3).

Spoiler

He may have had a degenerative illness that made him look older.

You can handwave that after the fact, but there's no way that was their intent when they filmed the scene, or he would've said something about it in dialogue. That's what's so bizarre about all this. Why did they change their minds?

 

[fireproof78]

That's what's so bizarre about all this. Why did they change their minds?

Because Terry wrote this before all the other timelines were established.

 

[Christopher]

Because Terry wrote this before all the other timelines were established.

No. I already explained -- the change had to be made after filming, because the 2401 date contradicts a number of things within the season itself, like Jack's stated age of 24-25, Seven being a commander, Alton Soong being so elderly, and the fact that the 250th anniversary of NX-01's launch would be half a year before season 2. This season was obviously written and filmed with the assumption that it took place sometime later, and then for some reason they changed their minds and pushed it back to 2401 despite the discrepancies that creates.

 

[fireproof78]

No. I already explained -- the change had to be made after filming, because the 2401 date contradicts a number of things within the season itself, like Jack's stated age of 24-25, Seven being a commander, Alton Soong being so elderly, and the fact that the 250th anniversary of NX-01's launch would be half a year before season 2. This season was obviously written and filmed with the assumption that it took place sometime later, and then for some reason they changed their minds and pushed it back to 2401 despite the discrepancies that creates.

YATI!

*another pin for the Terry voodoo doll*