It's fiction. The characters take big risks because that excites the audience. The risks pay off because that pleases the audience.
There is no problem here.
Data defeating Lore in his mind. Kind of stupid and cheesy
- Thread starter urrutiap
- Start date
There is no problem here.
That was one of my favorite parts of the season. I took it at as a representation of what was occurring. They weren't literally standing in a white room talking. It was two algorithms going at it. To make it make sense to our human brains, rather than a series of 1's and 0's flashing across the screen, we got a visual representation.
I loved the idea of it. Felt alot like "old" Trek, posing the question of "what are we other than a collection of memories?"
Yes, but they really didn't have any other choice.
I think there's at least a possibility Lore would have begrudgingly helped out anyway. The Borg just assimilating everything isn't really of any benefit to Lore, and realistically they're going to be gunning to assimilate him as well. Might well be in Lore's best interest to help them out at least for the moment. There also may have been just enough B4 and Alton Soong in there to make Lore ever so slightly more agreeable.
I loved the idea of it. Felt alot like "old" Trek, posing the question of "what are we other than a collection of memories?"
Yes, but they really didn't have any other choice.
I think there's at least a possibility Lore would have begrudgingly helped out anyway. The Borg just assimilating everything isn't really of any benefit to Lore, and realistically they're going to be gunning to assimilate him as well. Might well be in Lore's best interest to help them out at least for the moment. There also may have been just enough B4 and Alton Soong in there to make Lore ever so slightly more agreeable.
well it now ends looking like a frikking comic book plot from a comic book movie or even from a supernatural demon possession horror movie. That kind of sneaky plot twist has been done before many times. I don't want to see that stupid crap in a new Star Trek show
Understand that what we saw wasn't actually what was happening in Data's head. It was merely an interpretation of it, in a form that we mere humans can wrap our limited little minds around.
I loved it, especially the way Data literally "killed Lore with kindness."
I loved it, especially the way Data literally "killed Lore with kindness."
Yeah, not seeing much difference between Star Trek, a comic book movie and "supernatural". A lot of "stupid crap" crossover between the three. Not seeing why it's stupid in the first place.
I mean, this is the franchise with the thought as the basis of reality, good/evil transporter duplicates, and Earth duplicate planets.
I think this is pretty tame as far as "comic book nonsense" in Star Trek.
You must not like a lot of Star Trek in that case.
It probably fell a little flatter for me than it did for others, but I was kind of burned-out on Brent Spiner and Data by this point in the franchise.
I think the scene itself is fine for what it is, if perhaps a little unsinpired. Perhaps it's kind of a 'true to the spirit of Trek' solution, though?
In the broader context though, if we assume that Lore knew what was going on aboard the ship, then short of just wanting to screw over Our Heroes for the sake of it, I'm not really sure what he thought he'd gain by screwing them over, similar to my inability to imagine why any Founders would willingly align themselves with the Borg, but oh well...at least Lore has the excuse of being a psychopath.
I think the scene itself is fine for what it is, if perhaps a little unsinpired. Perhaps it's kind of a 'true to the spirit of Trek' solution, though?
In the broader context though, if we assume that Lore knew what was going on aboard the ship, then short of just wanting to screw over Our Heroes for the sake of it, I'm not really sure what he thought he'd gain by screwing them over, similar to my inability to imagine why any Founders would willingly align themselves with the Borg, but oh well...at least Lore has the excuse of being a psychopath.
I think that was more of a case of Vadic just wanting to hurt the Federation... and then would figure out the next play later.
Maybe, but I'm tired of villains who are written as being so focused on the short-term that they show no evidence that they're considering the long-term. It's not even that difficult to mitigate to some degree; just have a minion ask the antagonist, "Once we're done with X, what about Y?"
TWOK dealt with this really well by having Joachim openly (but respectfully) question Khan's pursuit of Kirk. If they'd simply hijacked Reliant and found another world to settle upon, who knows how things might have played out...
The occasional single-minded villain isn't so awful (Kruge works well enough for what he is), but Vadic could have been so much more, especially given that they had more screentime.
We're also just assuming there was no plan. Those conversations may have happened... we just didn't hear them. We don't need every piece of information. We don't know what the terms of the agreement were, nor do we need to.
If you want me to be impressed by the villain (or the writing), then yes, you do need to provide some evidence that there's some critical reasoning going on here. If I can think of it, I'm not sure why Vadic can't...and yet, we see no evidence that she has.
I never said anything about needing every piece of information. I don't need to know the plan, just that there is a plan.
Vadic was a lower-level Founder. She had left the Great Link, but probably remembered the Link’s plan regarding the Delta Quadrant. They had a plan for the Federation, but hadn’t planned for it to go into effect for 200 years. The Celestial Temple being found changed that.
I'm not even sure a low level Founder would've sanctioned (much less did it herself) killing her own kind in petty disputes, when the big rule of the Founders was you don't kill another changeling. Vadic was at best a rogue changeling looking for revenge on behalf of the Founders without even having any of the Founders' ideals herself.
I think that's fair. I don't think there was ever any indication that Vadic was working on behalf of the Dominion as a whole... she was on a personal vengeance crusade. There may have been some roundabout plans to set the Dominion up for success.
I really think that Vadic's agreement with the Borg Queen was probably a fairly simplistic "I help you, you leave us alone." The Borg can assimilate all the solids they want, the Founders can relax in the Great Link, everybody wins.
That's my head canon as well, though I doubt the vengeful Borg Queen (after reunifying the fragmented Borg Collective after wiping out Starfleet) would likely uphold her end of the bargain (but it's implied Vadic was too traumatised by the experiments and her loyalists are terrorist extremists, so blinded anyway).
I wouldn't expect either of them to hold up their end of any sort of bargain, although I COULD see some logic here... there's nothing in canon either way but I could potentially see the Borg having issues assimilating changelings, and potentially even Jem Hadar and Vorta given their genetically engineered genome.
*IF* that is true, that assimilation is not really on the table... the Borg may be more willing to ignore them, ESPECIALLY if they have come to some sort of understanding to stay out of each others way. It could even be a somewhat beneficial partnership for both... if the Borg can't assimilate a huge chunk of the Dominion, it doesn't help them much. And if the Borg aren't interested in the Dominion... they're out absorbing other solids.
Possibly, but by and large the Borg don't seem particularly interested in destruction and they do have a tendency to just ignore things... hell you can walk around their ships unmolested until you do something threatening. If the Dominion is able to convince the Borg that they're cool to just kinda hang out in the Gamma Quadrant, and there's not really much there that the Borg want to assimilate... meh? Why bother? It seems like the only reason reason the Dominion tended to expand was to impose order on the solids and make sure they don't go killing Founders... if the Borg don't care about the Founders, then it makes some sense that the Founders would be cool with the Borg just imposing their order on the solids.
Now granted, I don't REALLY think this is what happened here. I think this was Vadic making a deal with the Borg Queen... and yeah in the end neither of them were likely to actually bother to keep the agreement. Vadic just didn't care. Vadic was out for blood.
This. Revenge spoke to her more than anything else. A blinding, irrevocable, vision once initiated.
Similar threads
