Data and Troi

[Trekker4747]

Should Troi really be able to "sense" Data's emotions in Descent?

Does it make sense that "emotions" generated by computers and non-biological process could be detected by an empath?

 

[Cali]

Well, the writers seemed to be inconsistent with her telepathic/empathic abilities, so from that point of view I suppose it makes sense.

However, IMO, I'm not sure that she should have been able to sense generated emotions like that. It just wouldn't seem to make sense that she could.

 

[LivingDeadGuy]

I don't think she would be able to, not in the same way she can with humanoid beings.

Another way to look at it is since Data was being fed emotions by Lore, maybe there was some type of barrier that would prevent Troi from picking up on Data's emotions.

 

[Timo]

Troi has been shown reading the intentions of Ferengi, even though it has also been established that full Betazoids cannot telepathically read the Ferengi. One might therefore think that Troi's ability to sense emotions or mental states is not solely dependent on telepathy. Rather, it may mostly be an ability to read body language - in which case Troi could probably read the body language of an angst-ridden android, too. That is, if she were able to see that android.

Probably reading emotions on Data would be easier than reading them on an alien of a species that Troi hasn't observed much in other circumstances. Data, after all, is likely to a) be familiar to Troi and b) be programmed to emote in ways that imitate human emotions, with which Troi is literally intimately familiar.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[trekker670]

I agree that her "readings" have been inconsistent, but personally I dont think she should have been able to sense data's emotions

 

[FalTorPan]

Considering that we have no idea how Troi detects the emotions of organic life forms, I don't think we know enough to speculate about the feasibility of her being able to detect the emotions of non-organic life forms.

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

I think concurrent with that thought (re: Troi's empathy), there's also the issue of just how, precisely Data and Lore's 'emotions' work, precisely... Many times, it's been established that Data's positronic brain is capable of experiencing many things that the human brain cannot (multitasking, extremely fast and precise calculation and thought, fully compartmentalized thought processes, etc.). From that, one can't help but wonder just how an human emotional matrix would deal with such a mind, as, in theory, it would seem that Data could occupy several mutually exclusive emotional states simultaneously, instead of bogging down his entire matrix with one all-emcompassing emotion (which was seen to be utterly crippling for him on many occasions after aquiring the emotion chip). In any case, given Data's processing speed, one would think that he could work through emotional issues and traumas with ridiculous, almost psychotic ease. Imagine what that kid of whiplashing emotion would feel like to someone like Troi, assuming she can, in fact, sense his mind...

 

[Rhaenys]

Considering that we have no idea how Troi detects the emotions of organic life forms, I don't think we know enough to speculate about the feasibility of her being able to detect the emotions of non-organic life forms.

Yeah, I agree, not knowing that and not knowing how Data's emotions work, we really can not be sure.

But, my opinion is that I really doubt it would be possible for Troi to detect Data's emotions. She even can't detect emotions of all humanoid species.

 

[Timo]

But she can detect the emotions of surprisingly un-humanlike or even un-humanoidlike species. So all bets are off, really, as regards the reading of Soongian androids. Sure, they are alien in some ways - but they are also very familiar in others, having been designed to mimic human beings (or a specific human being) to astounding accuracy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trekker4747]

But look at it this way. Human emotions are going to be based on bio-chemical reactions and tied to -in a metaphysical sense- the human "soul" and spirit.

Data's emotions are going to be simulations generated by computer processors. She shouldn't be able to sense his emotions any more than she can sense the emotions of the ship's computer or a holodeck character.

Data's emotions are simple simulations of emotions not "real" emotions based on anything biological.

 

[Timo]

Sorry, that's an argument I certainly cannot buy, in whole or in part.

There is no fundamental difference between chemical reactions and computer processes - indeed, computer processes are chemical reactions. And if the chemical reactions of a human have a soul tied to them, there is no real reason why those of a computer would not as well.

There is nothing biological about emotions, as the very concept of "emotion" is a descriptive rather than constructive one. What looks, sounds and walks like an emotion, is an emotion, and it doesn't make one iota of difference if it is a "simulated", "stimulated" or "spontaneous" one.

This wholly apart from the question of how Troi detects emotions. If she can do that to the bewildering variety of possible chemical processes in different lifeforms, then computers and holodeck characters and toasters and rocks would be a breeze. (It would just so happen that toasters and rocks would have relatively little in the way of emotions. Holodeck characters would probably have a lot, as fed into them by the program, and if Troi reads body language, she'd pick up those easily enough.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

The problem is, it's hard to attempt to describe how Trek telepathy and empathy work without treading into some very metaphysical territory... I mean, try to properly define the mechanics of Trek telepathy without invoking the word 'soul', for example, and it's easy to see the problem here... This gets even more complicated when you try to incorporate aliens and non-organic beings into the mix... at which point the power of Troi's empathy becomes a direct function of plot necessity... in other words, it works when it needs to... such as in Generations when Troi clearly picks up Data's emotional state empathically after receiving the chip...

 

[Renvar]

Lucky they made her half-Betazoid. The writers can just use that little tidbit as an excuse to do whatever they want with her abilities. They could have her sprout wings and fly away, and when queried about it, simply say it's a result of her non-pure Betazoid genome. It's an open check to do whatever, really.

As for her powers displayed on-screen, I think on some instinctual level all Betazoids have the ability to read body language, pheremones, and other external outputs of emotional state. They might even have advanced visual cortices to see blush response and blood pressure, similar to how Geordi can tell if a human is lying ("Up The Long Ladder"). Their telepathy is an ability that builds off of these existing powers of observation. This might be why it's more difficult for Troi to read beings that have less of a physical form, like Nagilum ("Where Silence Has Lease").

Troi's abilities to sense emotions in others has never really been a huge problem with me (as far as sensing them in humanoids). I remember reading something about observing minute electrical impulses outside of the skull when subjects were instructed to think of a specific stimulus. I could see how a Betazoid brain could "tune in" to these electrical impulses.

What really amazes me is how Troi can project her thoughts into other people's non-telepathic minds. Two Betazoids could converse because they'd be essentially reading each other live. But how could a non-telepathic being like Riker hear Troi's projected thought-speak? The only explanation is that Troi is somehow generating these thoughts inside Riker's skull. If we knew the mechanism for this process, I think we'd have a much better understanding of Troi's abilities. I doubt we ever will learn it, since it would further hinder the writer's options.

 

[Saxman1]

I really love TNG...depending on when you ask me, I would go so far as to say it's my favorite (although DS9 and TOS vie for that honor, too). However, I don't think you can take anything at face value in this two-parter. "Descent" is like the "Nemesis" of TNG two - parters to me. Bleh. As Phil Farrund said in his Nitpickers guide, it seemed like a lame excuse to re-use all those Borg costumes. Add in sending almost the entire crew to look for Data on the planet, a whiny Hugh (why dear GOD did they bring him back - once was bad enough!) and other goofiness, it's a must-avoid for this huge TNG fan and his wife, another huge fan of TNG.

Clearly this was "last season-itis" or something. I say that as a fan of most of season seven, if not all of it.

Readin Data's emotions is the same as his getting the virus in that season one ep where he was horny with Yasha Tar: simply a plot device that makes no sense upon examination.

 

[Timo]

But as the above examination shows, there's no particular reason why it wouldn't make sense.

It makes far less sense to arbitrarily decide that Troi couldn't read Data. If so, shouldn't we also assume that she cannot read aliens like Worf or Riker?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jealousblues]

Should Troi really be able to "sense" Data's emotions in Descent?

Does it make sense that "emotions" generated by computers and non-biological process could be detected by an empath?

no she shouldnt. She coudlnt sense Ferengis because of slightly differnt brain structure (four lobes?) so i doubt she shoudl sense a machine

 

[jealousblues]

Troi has been shown reading the intentions of Ferengi, even though it has also been established that full Betazoids cannot telepathically read the Ferengi. One might therefore think that Troi's ability to sense emotions or mental states is not solely dependent on telepathy. Rather, it may mostly be an ability to read body language - in which case Troi could probably read the body language of an angst-ridden android, too. That is, if she were able to see that android.

Probably reading emotions on Data would be easier than reading them on an alien of a species that Troi hasn't observed much in other circumstances. Data, after all, is likely to a) be familiar to Troi and b) be programmed to emote in ways that imitate human emotions, with which Troi is literally intimately familiar.

Timo Saloniemi

well that kills my theory ;-)