Data and killing

[Mojochi]

Why not? Guinan once fired an energy weapon at the ceiling in Ten Forward. And there have been lots of other times people have fired energy weapons at bulkheads on ships.

Guinan's weapon was set at it's lowest setting, & pretty much all incidents of such, the shooter knew the setting of their weapon & the integrity of the hull they were shooting at. To our knowledge, Data knows neither of those things, & the last thing Data's weapon did was this

It would be a hazard to fire that thing indiscriminately.

Actually, it isn't a forcefield. Fajo describes it as, "It's a proximity-actuated field that impedes positron flow. Not good for your brainpaths in the long term." So if Data picks up a container or something and throws it, it will hit Fajo just fine.

You have absolutely no basis to assume that from what he said. Field & force-field are synonyms. It is a field that exerted force against the propelled body of Data, & repelled him halfway across the room. One can at least postulate that inanimate objects might respond the same way. After all, Data is comprised of non-biological materials. So you're saying that Data could remove his arm, thus making it an inanimate object, & throw it at Fajo & that will breach the field, but attached to Data it cannot? There is no grounds for assuming that & it doesn't even make any sense, & even if it did, why wouldn't he just throw stuff at the guy from the beginning, so he could successfully escape? What would the point even be of a defense field that protects you from being touched by someone but not protect you from a projectile assault?

And in the second or so that it takes you to say that, Data would be able to pick up some lose bit of equipment and throw it at Fajo's head to knock him unconscious.

Data's reflexes are certainly fast enough.

Assuming we overlook my last point (Which I haven't) So you're saying that in the second or two that it takes me to say "Computer put a containment field around Data" Data will have the necessary time to maneuver about this room & find something to launch at Fajo which will knock him fully unconscious fast enough to prevent him from saying it, BUT not kill him?

He's easily upwards of 10 feet from anything. His reflexes may be good, but even though his dexterity is shown to be miraculous, his maneuvering speed in an emergency is barely above normal human speeds, as evidenced in his escape from the Crystalline Entity attack, where he had to run back to retrieve a child from from Riker

The only definite solution in this moment for Data to remove all the potential threat that Fajo represents, is to fire that thing & hope it's fast enough & strong enough to breach that perimeter field

 

[Tiberius]

Why not? Guinan once fired an energy weapon at the ceiling in Ten Forward. And there have been lots of other times people have fired energy weapons at bulkheads on ships.

Guinan's weapon was set at it's lowest setting, & pretty much all incidents of such, the shooter knew the setting of their weapon & the integrity of the hull they were shooting at. To our knowledge, Data knows neither of those things, & the last thing Data's weapon did was this

It would be a hazard to fire that thing indiscriminately.

First of all, I'm sure Data can recognise a power level adjustment knob when he sees one.

Secondly, a solid metal deck plate will be more resistant to such effects than a flesh and blood body.

In any case, if Fajo had that beam anywhere near him, he'd run away from it.

Actually, it isn't a forcefield. Fajo describes it as, "It's a proximity-actuated field that impedes positron flow. Not good for your brainpaths in the long term." So if Data picks up a container or something and throws it, it will hit Fajo just fine.

You have absolutely no basis to assume that from what he said. Field & force-field are synonyms. It is a field that exerted force against the propelled body of Data, & repelled him halfway across the room. One can at least postulate that inanimate objects might respond the same way. After all, Data is comprised of non-biological materials. So you're saying that Data could remove his arm, thus making it an inanimate object, & throw it at Fajo & that will breach the field, but attached to Data it cannot? There is no grounds for assuming that & it doesn't even make any sense, & even if it did, why wouldn't he just throw stuff at the guy from the beginning, so he could successfully escape? What would the point even be of a defense field that protects you from being touched by someone but not protect you from a projectile assault?

What the...?

Fajo explicitly states what it is and what it does, and you say we have no basis to make that assumption? he clearly states that it works by impeding positron flow. So why do you think an object that has no positrons would be influenced in any way?

And in the second or so that it takes you to say that, Data would be able to pick up some lose bit of equipment and throw it at Fajo's head to knock him unconscious.

Data's reflexes are certainly fast enough.

Assuming we overlook my last point (Which I haven't) So you're saying that in the second or two that it takes me to say "Computer put a containment field around Data" Data will have the necessary time to maneuver about this room & find something to launch at Fajo which will knock him fully unconscious fast enough to prevent him from saying it, BUT not kill him?

He's easily upwards of 10 feet from anything. His reflexes may be good, but even though his dexterity is shown to be miraculous, his maneuvering speed in an emergency is barely above normal human speeds, as evidenced in his escape from the Crystalline Entity attack, where he had to run back to retrieve a child from from Riker

Actually, that supports my point. Data was at the front of the rather large group of colonists, and he made it to the back in a few seconds. He was obviously moving very quickly. And anyway, if Data was smart, he'd position himself close to something he could use. If worse comes to worse, he could bend or break the weapon he is holding so it stops working and then use THAT to knock Fajo out. Pitch it like a Baseball. I'm sure Data of all people would be able to give it a lot of impact.

 

[yousirname]

First of all, I'm sure Data can recognise a power level adjustment knob when he sees one.

I guess Varon-T disruptors must only have one setting.

Secondly, a solid metal deck plate will be more resistant to such effects than a flesh and blood body.

... he theorised, possibly inaccurately.

In any case, if Fajo had that beam anywhere near him, he'd run away from it.

Unless he closed his eyes so that his reflexes couldn't betray him.

Fajo explicitly states what it is and what it does, and you say we have no basis to make that assumption? he clearly states that it works by impeding positron flow. So why do you think an object that has no positrons would be influenced in any way?

He says that it impedes positron flow. He doesn't say that impeding positron flow is all that it does. For instance, doctors heal broken bones. This doesn't mean doctors are useless if you have a viral infection.

And anyway, if Data was smart, he'd position himself close to something he could use.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. You're still assuming that there's something in the vicinity which is neither too light to be effective nor too heavy to be non-lethal.

If worse comes to worse, he could bend or break the weapon he is holding so it stops working and then use THAT to knock Fajo out. Pitch it like a Baseball. I'm sure Data of all people would be able to give it a lot of impact.

Unless it would explode if he did that.

 

[Tiberius]

You guys seem to be going out of your way to come up with reasons why Data had no choice to be a murderer.

 

[yousirname]

You guys seem to be going out of your way to come up with reasons why Data had no choice to be a murderer.

Well, yeah. Like I said, you have to meet the episode half-way. At the heart of all this is a simple logical inference: If Data could have avoided firing, he would have. But Data fired. Therefore Data could not have avoided firing.

Now there are things that simply stretch one's tolerance and past a certain point it gets subjective. If you won't go along with the episode's intentions far enough to accept 'The Most Toys', well, fair enough. But if I were applying criteria as rigorous as yours, I'd have to reject all of Trek. Every species with access to FTL travel has Death Star style planet-killing technology, but war is still chiefly fought on board ships, often in neutral ground. Please. But depicting that realistically would mean they wouldn't be able to tell the kind of stories they want to tell. So they don't depict it realistically.

(Shrug) I'll take it.

 

[Mojochi]

You guys seem to be going out of your way to come up with reasons why Data had no choice to be a murderer.

No, you're coming up with any kind of nonsense to make it look like Data is a murderer, when in fact you should probably just accept that since Data isn't a casual murderer there is probably some explanation that is why he did what he did & found himself in a position of having no choice. It's a tv show. Suspend disbelief & get over it. I'm through humoring your completely unfounded fantasies