The most recent version of The Empire Strikes Back featured a partially re-recorded scene between Darth Vader and Palpatine (this time played by the more familiar Ian McDiarmid), where Palpatine tells Vader that Luke is his offspring, and Vader responds "How is that possible?" I like this scene, but I am aware that there are some Expanded Universe stories out there that make out Vader was already fully aware of his relationship to Luke. There have been depictions of Vader learning Luke's name (in Vader's Quest and the old Marvel Comics story "Dark Lord's Gambit"), but these particular stories don't necessarily mean that Vader was initially positive Luke was his biological son (He could've just been using the Skywalker name). But there are other stories where he does seem to accept this (and these are set before Episode V), and here lies the problem. Any thoughts on this issue?
Darth Vader knowing Luke is his son
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
The simplest explanation is that Vader's "How is that possible?" isn't a a sincere question. It's like breaking the window of your garage door. Your parents walk in and say, "The garage door window is broken." And you saying, "How is that possible?" They can guess how it happened, and you know damn well how it happened, you just aren't ready to admit it until you have to (as in, they discover the baseball surrounded by shards of broken glass).
On a vaguely related note regarding this scene, I wish they had shadowed the Emperor's face more like they did in the holograms in the prequels. Yes, we know what Palps looks like from ROTS, but they still should have left the big reveal for ROTJ. Also, I think McDiarmid forgot how to play Palpatine. The dialogue was too sluggish, as though the guy had just woken up. I was thrilled when they finally redid the hologram with McDiarmid, but the end result still leaves something to be desired, IMO.
"How is that possible?" I always took as Vader kind of denying/rejecting what he already knew to be true. Kind of out of a shock reaction for lack of a better description. Obi-Wan tells Luke to bury his feelings about his sister and that they could be used against him. I think in a way the Emperor was already doing this to Vader and Anakin was simply denying it until he realized that Luke could be used to help overthrow the Emperor. It's possible that the knowledge of a son with Padme was initially a painful shock to Vader...that he killed his wife while she was pregnant with his son would be a tremendous blow to his already damaged psyche.
As to the question...I'd say no, because my theory is that Vader doesn't really accept that Luke is his son until at least the middle part of Empire Strikes Back.
As to the question...I'd say no, because my theory is that Vader doesn't really accept that Luke is his son until at least the middle part of Empire Strikes Back.
There's a nice parallel with ROTS and Anakin offering Padme a chance to overthrow the Emperor. Then when he meets Luke, he says they can rule together. Considering the whole thing about there being only two Siths for a reason, it seems his question was feigned ignorance.
In the first movie, Vader went to fire on Luke's ship and thought "the force is strong in this one." Not "this is my kid." Therefore, I'm inclined to think that Vader didn't realize his son was alive until the Emperor told him.
The one that bugs me a whole lot more is how Vader didn't realize that Leia was his daughter. Wouldn't her name and title been a tipoff that it was Padme's (and his) daughter?
The one that bugs me a whole lot more is how Vader didn't realize that Leia was his daughter. Wouldn't her name and title been a tipoff that it was Padme's (and his) daughter?
The edited scene in the DVD Empire bugs me. In the opening crawl to Empire, we are told that Vader is obsessed with finding Skywalker and later on, on his star destroyer, he says something like 'That [Hoth] is the one [with the rebel base] and Skywalker is there.'
So presumably he knows that the pilot who blew up the Death Star (and whose Force strength he commented on in the trench in the Battle of Yavin) was called Skywalker. Yet he responds to the Emperor's words as if this is the first time he's realised that this force-strong pilot is the son of Anakin Skywalker. Is he really so dumb that he never made the connection before? Maybe Skywalker is as common as Smith in the SW galaxy but I don't find that particularly convincing.
The only way this makes sense is if Vader is lying to The Emperor, if he's on a mission of his own to find Luke and doesn't want Palpatine to know. However, as has been said, Palpatine is a hard man to deceive and Vader's response doesn't sound particularly convincing.
I don't know why Lucas changed the dialogue. I can understand why he replaced Clive Neville and the woman/chimp face with McDiarmud, for the sake of continuity. But the original lines, in which both Vader and Palpatine were already aware of the existence of the Son of Skywalker, made a lot more sense.
So presumably he knows that the pilot who blew up the Death Star (and whose Force strength he commented on in the trench in the Battle of Yavin) was called Skywalker. Yet he responds to the Emperor's words as if this is the first time he's realised that this force-strong pilot is the son of Anakin Skywalker. Is he really so dumb that he never made the connection before? Maybe Skywalker is as common as Smith in the SW galaxy but I don't find that particularly convincing.
The only way this makes sense is if Vader is lying to The Emperor, if he's on a mission of his own to find Luke and doesn't want Palpatine to know. However, as has been said, Palpatine is a hard man to deceive and Vader's response doesn't sound particularly convincing.
I don't know why Lucas changed the dialogue. I can understand why he replaced Clive Neville and the woman/chimp face with McDiarmud, for the sake of continuity. But the original lines, in which both Vader and Palpatine were already aware of the existence of the Son of Skywalker, made a lot more sense.
How would Vader clue in that Leia Organa who was raised by Bail and his wife with a different name? Bail would have meant nothing to Anakin at the time he knew him and especially nothing after he became Darth Vader. It is possible that Leia resembled Padme somewhat, but again if Vader had encountered her before (one must assume that it is possible that they did prior to A New Hope considering Leia's line to him) that he would have recognized Padme's features in hers but maybe ignored it. The dark side can twist things and blind people to the truth.
There's a photo of the refilming on the Revenge Of The Sith DVDs extras (Photo gallery). Which as interesting since the SE of Empire was a while before that. So he may have revisited it, again.
Vader's exaggerated "Hooowwww" always made it seem to me that he was being extremely sarcastic. He already knew full well that Luke Skywalker had to be his child, and when the Emperor admitted to knowing, too, it had him caught in a lie. Vader had probably been itching to have that little chat.
"How is that possible? I seem to remember somebody telling me I'd killed my still-visibly-pregnant wife. But that just doesn't make sense, now. Hm. I guess this is a mystery only the Force can comprehend, you lying prune-faced jackass."
A pity Palpatine was smart enough to play dumb.
I guess I'm glad that I haven't seen the more recent re-edits of TESB.
That seems plausible. Force-users being uncommon, combined with Skywalker, combined with Tatooine, combined with Obi-Wan being involved, leads to only one sensible conclusion. Vader should have figured things out not too long after the end of ANH.
I'm still hung up on the whole implausibility of Anakin and Padme not knowing she was pregnant with twins. Don't those people have the same standard prenatal screening technology we have on klunky ole planet Earth today??? So if the boy survived, Vader should immediately be wondering if the girl did too, because they should also know the kids' genders. And then start thinking about how many allies the Jedi would have had 20 years ago, where they could send a girl who is the right age and looks...yeesh, Vader could figure out Leia's identity by simple deduction about twelve seconds after he realized who Luke was.
And I might as well rant one more time at the implausibility that the twins' survival could have been hidden for very long anyway. The Evil Galactic Empire should have the resources to determine the truth about Padme giving birth. Dig up her grave, for starters.
Which reminds me, I got into a big argument over Xmas with someone who is convinced Lucas planned Luke and Leia to be siblings from the start, and peppered hints about Leia in ESB. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion and determined there was a long-lost sister referred to in ESB, but Lucas didn't plan it to be Leia. Please confirm he's full of it so I can call him back and gloat.
You should have written the dialogue. Tho Anakin should have been kicking himself that he ever believed such obviously self-serving crap without checking things out for himself, using the Empire's resources. And if Palps' tried to interfere, that alone is an admission that he lied.Waitaminute...if this dialogue is in ESB, does that mean Lucas is blowing the Big Plot Twist for all the toddlers who are seeing Star Wars for the first time?
I certainly hope there's a warning sticker or something.
Well, maybe there were still some things that The Empire wasn't able to do...after all, the Senate was still in existence for 20 years after The Emperor took operational control.
Doing things like digging up Padme's grave might have been a really bad move politically. They were busy using their resources on real threats.
Also, as hurt as ANakin was, he probably had strong emotional feelings for Tatooine (which is technically outside the Republic, right? So while the Empire could investigate & send troops, they couldn't take it over outright, correct?) as well as Naboo. Anakin would want to stay waway, for the sad memories, while the Emperor would have no need for such a world now
Doing things like digging up Padme's grave might have been a really bad move politically. They were busy using their resources on real threats.
Also, as hurt as ANakin was, he probably had strong emotional feelings for Tatooine (which is technically outside the Republic, right? So while the Empire could investigate & send troops, they couldn't take it over outright, correct?) as well as Naboo. Anakin would want to stay waway, for the sad memories, while the Emperor would have no need for such a world now
Leia got her last name and title from her adopted family. Don't see how that would out her as Vader's kid. She got her first name from her biological mom, but there was no hint that Vader knew it.
What should have tipped him off is a known Jedi sympathizer turning up with a newborn immediately after Vader's kid(s) "died".
I've heard suggestions that Luke was made relatively visible as a distraction. The logic goes like this: Basically, you hide Leia deep. You erase every trace of her parentage. (Maybe Bail's wife had just miscarried and no one knew it yet, so everyone thought it was her own child.)
You then hide Luke out in the open and relatively easy to locate. No one has a reason to think Padme's offspring survived (and Anakin has active reason to avoid Tatooine), but just in case they get suspicious, you give them something to find. If they do find him, they have no motivation to look further and Leia is still safe.
Of course, this only works if the searchers don't know there were twins.
