Why? I'm not forcing anybody - what's wrong with a lively debate, as long as it remains civil?
Danica McKellar Becomes A Bible-Believing Christian After Leaving California
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They certainly still try to do exactly that.
Sounds like harassment. At the very least, it's certainly annoying.
You make it sound so noble and beautiful, but the reality is that it often amounts to fear-mongering, horror stories of eternal suffering in hell, fire and brimstone. What’s wrong with it is that it’s arrogant and presumptuous to go through life thinking people who don’t share your religious beliefs are doing it wrong and must be corrected and that they somehow need your pity. The hubris!
What’s wrong about just being happy that you know “the words of life” and let others be?
Too bad you can’t, right?
I do.
You'll notice I'm not pushing anything here. I wouldn't outside of a genuine relationship. I would not espouse fear, hell fire, or such.
I prefer relationship first. Can't do that online.
Enjoy your life.
Are you yanking my chain?
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I know that about you, @fireproof78.I do.
You'll notice I'm not pushing anything here. I wouldn't outside of a genuine relationship. I would not espouse fear, hell fire, or such.
I prefer relationship first. Can't do that online.
Enjoy your life.
And at no point during all this did I mean to talk about anything you personally are doing. I’m talking about religious evangelists in general.
But, I don't know know them. I know how the best way to engage in this is via relationship. If you force anything, including politics, sex, and religion, I'll push back.I know that about you, @fireproof78.
There is a more excellent way.
I personally refuse to resort to any of those tactics. Those who raised me in my early childhood often did, and it drove me away from God for a long time. But I also don't deny the existence of places like hell, or the concept of divine punishment.Its not pretty, but its part of the faith.
As for hubris, I don't think it applies here. But since this is a "Star Trek" forum, here's a quote to consider. In the "TNG" episode "Hide & Q", Picard and his supernatural nemesis are verbally sparring with one another, and at one point Q brings up Shakespeare's "Hamlet". This was Picard's response...
"Oh, I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!"
Now obviously, Picard was being somewhat sarcastic here, but I think his overall point still stands. Hubris is defined as "exaggerated pride or self-confidence", but just because someone holds to a steadfast belief, that doesn't make their claims too prideful or over-confident.
Not to be too direct about this, but since you brought it up, here's an illustration. Imagine you see a blind and deaf person, and they're crossing the street. When they're about halfway across, you see a fast-moving vehicle about to run them over. You know they can't see it, and there's very little time. So you only have two choices - you can either risk your own life to save theirs, or let them die while remaining blissfully ignorant of the danger they faced. Apply that scenario to a spiritual context, and that's the core of what Christian witnessing is all about. Believers are not called by God to remain on the sidelines; He wants us to be active examples of Him in the world.
Well, I would say going out of your way to try and persuade others of your beliefs is the very definition of being over-confident of said beliefs.
You gotta love that about an all-powerful god, that he needs his mortal minions to spread his message. I’d say he’s doing a pretty miserable job as an all-powerful god if he can’t even show himself now in such a way that everyone must believe in him.
Didn’t I just mention fear-mongering? Charming how this illustration of yours casts people who don’t share your belief as blind and deaf, walking straight into their demise, and you as the selfless savior risking his live to get the Good News to them. Well, if you put it like that I’m immediately convinced. Not over-confident of your beliefs at all.
The more fitting illustration would probably be: A person crosses the street wearing a hat. They see two other people who are also crossing the street, but are not wearing hats. The hat-wearer goes over to them and tries to persuade them to become hat-wearers.
There's multiple places in Scripture, where its revealed that God wants people to freely choose Him...and we can't do that if we're coerced or forced. But such a thing is very different from being convinced, through a rational discussion or debate.
I used a somewhat extreme example, deliberately. The core heart of the Christian faith is the teaching that the Earth is in the midst of a spiritual war, with God on one side, Satan on the other, and humanity in the middle. Jesus said it very plainly: "No man can serve two masters. You will either love one and hate the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other." God has given people tons of evidence regarding His existence, from things such as nature, history, archeology, philosophy, science, and His Word. But He has also given everyone free will, and the choice is ours. Christians are called to be active witnesses, but not bullies. Fear mongering is defined as "the action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue"...and in this case, telling people the truth according to their Creator simply doesn't fit.
The “truth” in this case literally being “You will suffer for all eternity and endure never-ending torture if you don’t start believing!”
If that’s not an “action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue” I just don’t know what is.
I think we have greatly different definitions of the word "evidence."
Your truth.
I wonder, why is God doing it that way? Surely he is all-loving and he doesn’t want anyone to suffer. Especially not FOREVER and EVER for all ETERNITY. So why did he make it so complicated that we have to freely choose him? If his goal is have less suffering, why does he make it so hard for so many to see the truth?
Let's clarify one thing -- the Bible never describes hell as a place of torture. The word used instead is "torment", and the difference is very important. Strictly speaking, torture is external, while torment is internal.
God is perfectly loving, and it is certainly His desire that no one suffers. But He is also perfectly just, and as such He must punish the unrepentant. The reason why God's wrath lasts forever is because He does as well. When we commit a crime, we're not just breaking man's laws, but also God's. His very nature is eternal, but our mortal lives are not...and the only way for a temporal being to pay a penalty to Someone who never ends, is to do so forever. We obviously can't do that, because of our broken nature...so that's why God sent His one and only perfect Son, to die in our place and pay our ransom. Hell is not a place where all who don't believe are roasted for all time by hordes of demons - that's a description we get from modern pop culture, and folks like the 13th-century "Inferno" writer Dante Alighieri. One of the descriptions used for hell in the Bible, is of a place that's full of "weeping and gnashing of teeth", which indicates great sorrow and regret. So whatever the full extent of hell is, at least part of it involves being eternally reminded of all your sins. But the ultimate purpose of hell is to keep non-believers away from God; otherwise, they'd try to corrupt His kingdom. Author and apologist C.S. Lewis was quoted as saying, "Hell is nothing but yourself, for all eternity."
Yeah, we tend to do that.
You do of course have a right to your view. I would question the thought that you have the right to try to convince others of that view. I definitely don't believe you have that right to impose that view on others against their will.
I won't try to convince you that my worldview is correct and yours is wrong, as long as you extend that same courtesy to me.
I'm willing to take evolution into account. I am NOT anti-evolution. But this thing with the Progenitors just seems so blatant, so final. Evolution is a natural process , which God can set in motion; the Progenitors are a distinct entity, with specific free will and intent.
I mean, from my perspective, why am I supposed to believe that the DSC writers intend to allow for the existence of God and the Progenitors simultaneously? How am I supposed to reconcile that?
And again, I'm still watching the show. I'm not knocking it. I'm not upset! I'm not pissed! I am simply trying to get out of this dilemma without sounding like a fanatic. I hope that’s still possible.
Definitely still possible, no worries there. I was sincerely asking, and now I understand your perspective behind your original statement. Thank you for the response!
Is it, though? The old testament god, at least, seemed to be quite into the suffering.
The existence of a fallen world, and all it entails, is not evidence for a lack of the supernatural.
For the most part, I've been doing my best to go with the flow, answering questions honestly and peacefully whenever they are asked of me. My goal is not to force anyone into anything, but I do believe in civil discussion being very healthy.
That might be so. I don’t personally care one way or the other, since it’s all hogwash to me. But I'd like to point out that even though the bible might not describe hell as an actual place of torture, many Christians certainly do hold that belief and preach about it that way.
I don’t think I’m able to respond to anything in this in a way that wouldn’t come off as disrespectful of your beliefs. Let me just say that almost none of this makes any logical sense to me on its face and I think it’s laughable that Christianity asks its believers to accept all of this as true.
Old Testament god is a murdering maniac who’s teaching his chosen people how to do slavery right. But I’ll say this, at least he makes for less dry reading than the New Testament.
Some? In fact, by an overwhelming margin, most religious people in the US do believe that humans exist because of evolution, when counting those who believe that God can guide the process [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...olution-depends-on-how-theyre-asked-about-it/]. Not to mention, most people of all kinds in the US, religious or not, believe that humans exist because of evolution.
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