Damn you, Berman & Braga!

[Ralphis]

I never was an Enterprise basher, but I do feel it was kind of a miss opportunity. A lot of what they did in season 4 is what they should have done from the start in season 1. It didn't feel like a true prequel until season 4, IMHO.

At first, I was kind of upset about how they didn't adhere to the mid-22 Century Spock described in the TOS episode Balance of Terror, but I got over it.

And the only reason I was interested in the Temporal Cold War was because I always felt we'd find out that "Future Guy" was a Romulan, and that somehow the Temporal Cold War would lead up to the Earth-Romulan War.

I also felt the cast needed some re-working. I never did quite believe Jolene Blalock's performance. But I enjoyed LOOKING at her too much to really notice...

But, for some reason I watched all the episodes at least once, so I guess I liked the show.

 

[Ralphis]

What was the plot?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Beginning

About the only thing I liked about it was the idea of an "United Earth Stellar Navy". That's always what I thought the crew of the NX-01 should have been from... some sort of stellar navy... or some sort of mixed crew of a stellar navy and the United Earth Space Probe Agency.

But it's all done and over with.

 

[Dukhat]

I never was an Enterprise basher, but I do feel it was kind of a miss opportunity. A lot of what they did in season 4 is what they should have done from the start in season 1. It didn't feel like a true prequel until season 4, IMHO.

Agreed. The first few seasons could have been Voyager episodes, the way they were written.

At first, I was kind of upset about how they didn't adhere to the mid-22 Century Spock described in the TOS episode Balance of Terror, but I got over it.

There were also data points from TNG about doctors wearing surgical masks, and no transporter tech, which was ignored in ENT as well.

And the only reason I was interested in the Temporal Cold War was because I always felt we'd find out that "Future Guy" was a Romulan, and that somehow the Temporal Cold War would lead up to the Earth-Romulan War.

I felt the same way, but once I realized that there was no backstory developed for this I quickly lost interest (and the space Nazis didn't help either).

I also felt the cast needed some re-working. I never did quite believe Jolene Blalock's performance. But I enjoyed LOOKING at her too much to really notice...

She was essentially a Seven of Nine clone, right down to the catsuit that made it incredibly hard to take her seriously.

But, for some reason I watched all the episodes at least once, so I guess I liked the show.

I actually missed most of season three because I had lost interest by that time. But to ENT's credit, I did watch all of season four.

About the only thing I liked about it was the idea of an "United Earth Stellar Navy". That's always what I thought the crew of the NX-01 should have been from... some sort of stellar navy... or some sort of mixed crew of a stellar navy and the United Earth Space Probe Agency.

Actually, I had written in another thread that I thought the Enterprise should have been part of an Earth space navy, so much so that I though it would have been cool if the ship were built from the existing U.S.S. Enterprise CVN-65 aircraft carrier, a la the Argo/Yamato from Starblazers. That way, every time we saw the aircraft carrier in TMP, TNG, etc. it would have actually been the ship from ENTERPRISE.

 

[Admiral Shran]

At first, I was kind of upset about how they didn't adhere to the mid-22 Century Spock described in the TOS episode Balance of Terror, but I got over it.

There were also data points from TNG about doctors wearing surgical masks, and no transporter tech, which was ignored in ENT as well.

I personally don't see how ENT contradicts the way Spock described the time period.

As for the TNG references, I haven't seen them in a long time, but maybe they were referring to the early 22nd century (ENT does begin in 2151, after all). Medicial techniques/technology/knowledge were a lot more advanced in 1951 than they were in 1903, for example. As for the transporters, they were brand new inventions on ENT, so they wouldn't have been around just a few years before. Even once they were introduced, they weren't exactly widespread.

 

[Dukhat]

I personally don't see how ENT contradicts the way Spock described the time period.

Spock: "As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

Kirk: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
Stiles: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."
Kirk: "I had no idea that history was your specialty."
Stiles: "Family history. There was a Captain Stiles was in the space service then."


Doesn't sound like the ENTERPRISE I watched.

 

[Broccoli]

ANiS isn't that bad of an episode. And "Precious Cargo" is just campy fun. People complain that the actress is horrible in the episode. I disagree as I think she played the role of an annoying spoiled brat spot on.

Spock: "As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

Kirk: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
Stiles: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."
Kirk: "I had no idea that history was your specialty."
Stiles: "Family history. There was a Captain Stiles was in the space service then."

Doesn't sound like the ENTERPRISE I watched.

The only point of contention I see in any of that is the atomic weapons comparison.

Everything else was not outright contradicted in any way (not seeing it on ENT doesn't mean it didn't happen).

 

[Admiral Shran]

I personally don't see how ENT contradicts the way Spock described the time period.

Spock: "As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

Kirk: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
Stiles: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."
Kirk: "I had no idea that history was your specialty."
Stiles: "Family history. There was a Captain Stiles was in the space service then."


Doesn't sound like the ENTERPRISE I watched.

So, Spock says that the weapons and ships were primitive by 23rd century standards.

Okay, well - the handheld weapons on ENT couldn't vaporize someone (primitive compared to 23rd century phasers) and the ship's phasers were much less advanced and powerful (in fact, they were relatively brand new). The ships didn't even have tractor beams yet, instead relying on harpoon-like technology. The NX-01 was also much, much smaller than the NCC-1701 (there wouldn't have been much room for a lot of captives onboard).

Spock also says that there was no ship-to-ship visual communication.

Okay, well - when does he say that there was no ship-to-ship visual communication at all? He only says that Humans/allies and Romulans didn't have ship-to-ship visual communcations. And when on ENT did any Human or ally see a Romulan? The only times I remember were someone they ensalved (who killed himself before he could reveal anything) and a Vulcan who was on the Romulans' payroll.

Spock also talks about primitive atomic weapons.

Okay, well - who says that phasers and photon torpedos aren't atomic-based weapons? Clearly, the phasers and torpedos used on ENT were primitive to ones on TOS (just like the weaponry of the 1890s could be considered primitive to today's real world weaponry).

I think you're reading too much into what Spock actually says. He doesn't say the Earth-Romulan War was fought with 20th century nuclear bombs. He doesn't say that the ships of the 22nd century were the size of 20th century space shuttles. He doesn't even say that visual communication didn't exist (unless you want to believe that Humans and their Vulcan allies never saw each other until Balance of Terror - which is impossible because Spock was in previous episodes).

So, the way I see it, ENT is in keeping with what Spock said about the time period.

 

[Dukhat]

I personally don't see how ENT contradicts the way Spock described the time period.

Spock: "As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

Kirk: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
Stiles: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."
Kirk: "I had no idea that history was your specialty."
Stiles: "Family history. There was a Captain Stiles was in the space service then."


Doesn't sound like the ENTERPRISE I watched.

So, Spock says that the weapons and ships were primitive by 23rd century standards.

Okay, well - the handheld weapons on ENT couldn't vaporize someone (primitive compared to 23rd century phasers) and the ship's phasers were much less advanced and powerful (in fact, they were relatively brand new). The ships didn't even have tractor beams yet, instead relying on harpoon-like technology. The NX-01 was also much, much smaller than the NCC-1701 (there wouldn't have been much room for a lot of captives onboard).

Spock also says that there was no ship-to-ship visual communication.

Okay, well - when does he say that there was no ship-to-ship visual communication at all? He only says that Humans/allies and Romulans didn't have ship-to-ship visual communcations. And when on ENT did any Human or ally see a Romulan? The only times I remember were someone they ensalved (who killed himself before he could reveal anything) and a Vulcan who was on the Romulans' payroll.

Spock also talks about primitive atomic weapons.

Okay, well - who says that phasers and photon torpedos aren't atomic-based weapons? Clearly, the phasers and torpedos used on ENT were primitive to ones on TOS (just like the weaponry of the 1890s could be considered primitive to today's real world weaponry).

I think you're reading too much into what Spock actually says. He doesn't say the Earth-Romulan War was fought with 20th century nuclear bombs. He doesn't say that the ships of the 22nd century were the size of 20th century space shuttles. He doesn't even say that visual communication didn't exist (unless you want to believe that Humans and their Vulcan allies never saw each other until Balance of Terror - which is impossible because Spock was in previous episodes).

So, the way I see it, ENT is in keeping with what Spock said about the time period.

I'm not really convinced. I saw no technology, other than the grappling hook, that wasn't pretty much the same things I saw on Voyager. The phase pistol is just a phaser by any other name. Just because we never saw anyone being vaporized by it doesn't mean it's more primitive. It's a directed-energy weapon emitting a beam of light, just like a phaser. Ditto the photon torpedoes. There was nothing to suggest a nuclear power source for any of it, or that they were any different from their 23rd or 24th century counterparts.

There was plenty of visual ship-to-ship communication in ENT. As a matter of fact, I can't recall one single instance where there wasn't visual communication between ships, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW, the NX-01 had almost the same size saucer as the NCC-1701. And wasn't there a brig also? That would kinda negate the "no quarter, no captives" thing.


Let me get something straight here: I'm not saying that I mind that the producers of ENT didn't slavishly follow a few lines from one episode of 1960's Trek (although it would have been nice if they did). I'm just pointing out the differences.

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ That's like saying that Gatling Guns are no different from modern day machine guns. They're both guns that fire multiple bullets without having to reload.

There was never any visual communications with the Romulans. They spoke to them over subspace and between ships, but never saw them.

As for the brig, it could hold what, two people at the most? I'd say that's not much room for quartering captives. The NX-01 was also never shown to have a lot of guest quarters like the later ships did.

I'd have to say that TPTB followed the lines in Balance of Terror pretty well without being slavish to them.

 

[Anwar]

And besides, the "No Quarter" thing could easily just mean that they just didn't take prisoners and the war was brutal enough that they just blew each other up all the time.

 

[Mach5]

ANiS isn't that bad of an episode.

LOL

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ Well it's not.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

^^ I liked it too.

 

[number6]

*Waves to Number6 *

*waving back*

I also thought A Night In Sickbay was a fun episode.

 

[RandyS]

ANiS isn't that bad of an episode.

LOL

It's like the gazelle speech. It has an overblown reputation, but it's really not all that bad.

 

[Broccoli]

For a comedic episode, ANiS does it's job well.

 

[T'Girl]

As for the brig, it could hold what, two people at the most? I'd say that's not much room for quartering captives. The NX-01 was also never shown to have a lot of guest quarters like the later ships did.

I think you've misunderstood what is meant by the word "quarter."

It wasn't that the combatants had no room for captives, they may have possessed abundant room, they were making no effort to take any in the first place.

No quarter means "Take no prisoners."

QUARTER: In military affairs, the remission or sparing of the life of a captive or an enemy when in one's power. Mercy granted by a conqueror to his enemy, when no longer able to defend himself. In desperate encounters, men will sometimes neither ask nor give quarter. The practice of giving no quarter to soldiers in a fortress taken by assault, is nearly obsolete.

Lambs at the mercy of wolves would expect no quarter.

 

[Mach5]

^ Well it's not.

Is

 

[KB24]

Hmm...Very interesting thread. Now that time has passed, I suppose I'm not super angry at the Bs anymore. UPN and some stale writing had a lot to do with Enterprise's hangups.

Season 1 has a lot of potential that never really blossoms, rather sticking with stock Trek style and scripts. 2 falls more into this trap. Even though there are some lovely episodes here. 3 makes great strides with the season long arc, allowing for less time for the stand alone filler weak shows, but the entire premise of the season stems back to that faulty temporal cold war-which imo was always a backdoor way to pull in other Trek stars and stunts if needed.

4 has the fresh blood behind the scenes and makes wonderful strides in returning Enterprise to the TOS style like it should have been all along. The ending is butchered by the Bs finale, but overall 4 is the best and most Trek like thanks to Coto's return to TOS truths instead of TNG and weak VOY imitations.

I have all the DVDs, but haven't watched them in awhile. I catch some eps on SyFy, but I'm not as obessed with ENT as I used to be. The Horror!

Here's a review I did awhile back on Season 4

http://ithinkthereforeireview.blogspot.com/2007/11/star-trek-enterprise-season-4.html

 

[Ralphis]

I personally don't see how ENT contradicts the way Spock described the time period.

Spock: "As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

Kirk: "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves."
Stiles: "You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey."
Kirk: "I had no idea that history was your specialty."
Stiles: "Family history. There was a Captain Stiles was in the space service then."


Doesn't sound like the ENTERPRISE I watched.

I would've quoted the exact same piece... It's obvious that Enterprise wasn't what Spock described. BUT... as I stated above, I got over it. In fact, I think it was better that they didn't follow that description. I do wish is was more prequalish, but whatever... I moved on.