Damar & Infidelity in the 24th Century

[DevilEyes]

DAMAR
My wife and I... she was a
difficult woman. Selfish.
Stubborn. But she wasn't part of
this rebellion. The Dominion knew
that... the Founder knew that...
Weyoun knew that. To kill her...
and my son...

(beat)
The... casual brutality of it.
The... waste of life.

It's always interesting to read the scripts and see the differences between the script and what is filmed. Have you read all of the scripts or just some? I have them all on my computer, but I have only looked through some specific scenes where I was curious if they were written in a certain way or not.

There was a hint that something wasn't right with their marriage earlier when Damar said something like "You are really understanding, I wish my wife was like that." But it wasn't clear if the problems had already been there or if they started when he withdraw into himself because of his guilt and started drinking. Judging by that script, it seems like the marriage had not been good even before that.

Damar said his wife was difficult and selfish....

No, he didn't.

so maybe he just did not get the love, the understanding and the security he needed from her, especially in his situation. And he also slept in the Headquarter and not at home, so he surly was lonely. Wasn´t he allowed to, you think?

That's irrelevant. I don't care what his wife may have been like, cheating is never 'allowed' or justified.

What does that mean, it is not 'allowed'? It's not illegal today - unless you live under Sharia Law - so the only people who decide if it is or is not 'allowed' or justified is the spouse/partner one cheats on, who gets to decide if they are able to forgive it, and the people involved, who may or may not decide that they are morally bound not to do it. The society at large, IMO, has no business deciding anything in the matter.

Of course, we are still free to feel this way or other about someone's cheating, even if we are not personally affected. Personally, I tend to dislike people who think it's perfectly OK to lead a double life and constantly cheat on their spouse, even though they have no intention of ending the marriage. I especially hate hypocritical patriarchal men who think they can cheat on their wives but that the wife is not allowed to do the same, and will act possessive and jealous of her, while expecting her to accept their infidelities. On the other hand, I can understand that people fall in love, think they want to be with someone forever, get married, have children, then fall out of love and fall for someone else. I would say that one should be honest about this and end the marriage if they are in love with someone else. But I realize that people aren't perfect and can't always do the right thing, and I can see why it's not always that easy - people probably think "how do I tell him/her", "I don't want to hurt him", if they had been together for a long time they may be torn and unsure if they want the relationship to be really over, or they are afraid of a messy divorce, and especially when there are children involved, of the effect it will have on the children, of a custody battle, of losing the children in a custody battle... (At least that's what I'm guessing, I can't speak from experience as I've never been married or had kids.)

 

[TerokNor]

[/QUOTE]
It's always interesting to read the scripts and see the differences between the script and what is filmed. Have you read all of the scripts or just some? I have them all on my computer, but I have only looked through some specific scenes where I was curious if they were written in a certain way or not.

There was a hint that something wasn't right with their marriage earlier when Damar said something like "You are really understanding, I wish my wife was like that." But it wasn't clear if the problems had already been there or if they started when he withdraw into himself because of his guilt and started drinking. Judging by that script, it seems like the marriage had not been good even before that.[/QUOTE]

No, I haven´t read them all... only the scenes that I was interessted in.
I think it reads like it wasn´t a happy marriage to beginn with...I could imagine even that it was no love marriage at all, but arranged/ forced by the family.
Now without interpretating too much in what we have in canon Damar strives me as a character, who longed for love and praise, but never did get a lot of it, so he grew hard.
Might be by the way one (out of many) reasons why he was so extremly loyal to Dukat, because Dukat gave him praise and approval.
Anyway back to his wife...if she was that way and he found no hold in her in a situation were he needed nothing more than someone on his side, to love and accept and help him no matter what... well I surly can´t fault the man to look for some sort of "warmth" and relaxion in other places (Kanar and women). Its just a desperate try to cope...not the best coping- strategy for sure, but he might have known no others. Kanar for example seemed to be a coping strategy even before becoming the leader of cardassia. When he drinks his Kanar at Quarks he does it quite fast and as if he is used too itt (that does not mean addicted). When we see Dukat with Kanar he drinks entirely different, he enjoys it, while Damar already there drinks for the effect lke it seems and not because he enjoys the taste. *L* Sorry I could go on analysing troubled characters, be them imaginative or real, for hours...but my actual point is, that one should not look only at the visibel behaviour and judge harshly, without looking beyond at the whole picture. And I mean now not only concerning an imaginative character like Damar (who is really written very...well human so to say), but in real life when looking at real people and their actions. Theres so much more to see than only the action. Such complexity. It can be utterly frustraiting that we are so complex beings and that often nothing is like it seems and hat their is not the answer to be found, that one can pull over everybody who seems to show a similiar behaviour , but its SO fascinating.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Sorry, but cheating is NEVER excusable. If you are unhappy in your marriage, you should either be honest with your spouse and try to work through the problems, or be honest and get a divorce. Or, if you are of the type that cannot be loyal in the first place, here's a hint: DON'T GET MARRIED and DON'T SCREW MARRIED PEOPLE. Either way, lying and oath-breaking, or being a party to it, are NEVER acceptable.

 

[TerokNor]

Mhm ok, I agree that the best way is honesty, however when we take my made-up szenario around Damar.... an authorian father/family forces you to marry someone you do not love and who does not love you, for the reason to "produce" the next generation for said family, which is of course also what the staate wants and what got filled into your brain since birth, as your responsibility towards the staate and your family and you got trained to be obidient to your superiours (counting in the family head) anyway... but you do not get the warmth you need to survive from that person, are seperated of her most of the time, due being a soldier on missions, are lonely and than get thrown into a situation you don´t know how to cope with and have no help with... also you cannot seperate from your partner, because that would mean to undergo the wishes of your family and you have to be loyal to the family .... would that soften your opinion of cheating?
Just curious...

TerokNor

 

[Mary Ann]

Remember, economic classism is not neccesarily a bad thing. Poverty is a bad thing. But, indeed, a high standard of living results in a steady decrease in the negative effects of being at the bottom of the ladder. And a ladder is for the purpose of climbing. Take away the ladder--make everthing come to the people without the need to rise on one's own effort--and you hurt society, rather than help it, because you create dependency.

Provided there aren't too many rungs on the ladder. To give an example, the UK has the overall lowest quality of life for children in Western Europe, not because the UK has a low overall standard of living, but because of the huge disparity between the very rich and the very poor. Countries which have a smaller gap between the top and bottom economic classes, such as Sweden, have a higher quality of life for its children.

I agree that competition can be a good thing, but this competition must be accessible to all citizens. People living in extreme poverty by western standards are often excluded from these competitions for a number of reasons (which I won't get into or this post will become *very* long and ranty).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Mhm ok, I agree that the best way is honesty, however when we take my made-up szenario around Damar.... an authorian father/family forces you to marry someone you do not love and who does not love you, for the reason to "produce" the next generation for said family, which is of course also what the staate wants and what got filled into your brain since birth, as your responsibility towards the staate and your family and you got trained to be obidient to your superiours (counting in the family head) anyway... but you do not get the warmth you need to survive from that person, are seperated of her most of the time, due being a soldier on missions, are lonely and than get thrown into a situation you don´t know how to cope with and have no help with... also you cannot seperate from your partner, because that would mean to undergo the wishes of your family and you have to be loyal to the family .... would that soften your opinion of cheating?
Just curious...

TerokNor

For starters, we do not know if this is an arranged marriage.

Even if it is, my opinion does not change--because frankly, what you need to "survive" comes from within. After all, many people are able to live good lives without ever getting married at all, and these people who are supposedly "alone" do just fine. And it's not even an issue of trying and failing to find a partner in many cases; it is that these people know they can succeed without a partner. The same is true of any adverse circumstance--you make a decision: will you rely upon the world to support you, or will you rely on inward sources? That's YOUR decision and if you make the wrong one, you risk paying the consequences in your well-being and that of the people around you.

But regardless of how Damar got into his marriage, he has no excuse to abuse his wife in any fashion, and that includes cheating. If she is being cold towards him, she should be kinder, yes, but that does NOT justify cheating. EVER. As before, the only two options are be honest about the issues and try to work through them, or get a divorce. And only THEN date other (unmarried) women.

 

[StarryEyed]

Sorry, but cheating is NEVER excusable.

According to your personal morality. I don't even recognize the concept, believing instead that it's "NEVER excusable" for one person to have ownership rights over another.

Monogamy is a cultural issue, not a moral one.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Any relationship, even an open one, can be cheated upon. Just because there isn't monogamy doesn't mean there can't be pain and hurt...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's not about having ownership of someone else. It's about having enough ownership of YOURSELF that you treat others, especially those to whom you give your word, with respect.

 

[TerokNor]

Hmm, but for having the ownership about yourself and to live from whats inside you, you need to have a certain strengh within you. But when now that strengh never truly was allowed to develop (because you would need to have encouragement and apprication of your person to do so) and the very small flames of inner strengh that might have found a way to burn nontheless, then were stepped upon and aren´t alive anymore and you also have no spirituelity in yourself to draw strengh from, because spirituality is nothing that the society you live in wants to grow in you... doesn´t that, added to loneliness, fear, desperation, frustration and feeling overwhelmed by a task makes it a little bit understandable to do such a thing as for a married man looking for distraction in ladies?
No, its no right thing to do, Iagree there, but doesn´t it arouse some sort of sympathy and understanding, especially when the wfe you are married to is not going to give you love?

TerokNor

 

[Too Much Fun]

It's not about having ownership of someone else. It's about having enough ownership of YOURSELF that you treat others, especially those to whom you give your word, with respect.

With that statement, you totally remind me of Garak when he was insulting Ezri by comparing her to Jadzia. You can take that as a compliment, if you like. I can't believe a thread I started has continued on for this long. Clearly there's a lot of passion about the issue of infidelity here. Now that it's been awhile since I started the thread, I look back on it and feel I was perhaps a little too hard on ol' Damar.

On the other hand, here's something that didn't occur to me at the time - if you're married and separated from your family by circumstances out of your control (i.e. war) in the 24th century and feeling lonely, why not get rocks your off in a holosuite rather than with an actual person? Wouldn't that be less cheating than fooling around with a real person? Maybe Cardassians just weren't into that, though. I don't recall seeing them in holosuites much in DS9. Garak was in one a few times and generally didn't seem too thrilled by the whole experience.

 

[TerokNor]

Hmm, maybe they didn´t had Holosuits, or at least not a lot and in the central Command, cause you know joy is not the important thing for the Cardassian staate. Also Holosuits are for sure eating up a lot energy... and as Cardassia has not so many ressources...
And if you are really lonely... hmm, I doubt the touching hands of a hologramm, that is not real and cannot truly feel, is what makes the loneliness go away. If its only for the physical part...mhm, but when the soul hurts?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hmm, but for having the ownership about yourself and to live from whats inside you, you need to have a certain strengh within you. But when now that strengh never truly was allowed to develop (because you would need to have encouragement and apprication of your person to do so) and the very small flames of inner strengh that might have found a way to burn nontheless, then were stepped upon and aren´t alive anymore and you also have no spirituelity in yourself to draw strengh from, because spirituality is nothing that the society you live in wants to grow in you... doesn´t that, added to loneliness, fear, desperation, frustration and feeling overwhelmed by a task makes it a little bit understandable to do such a thing as for a married man looking for distraction in ladies?

Just because one can see how he got from Point A to Point B doesn't make it right.

And the ironic thing is that in the end, Damar DID make a choice, despite every single circumstance you cite that "should have" prevented him from ever doing so. He chose to acknowledge that he had an alcohol problem.

Which is why I made this avatar, BTW...it's the first of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Once he really admitted to himself that he had a problem, and what he had done to himself by his own choices, he was able to take the next steps and change himself. He stopped drinking, he stopped consorting with other women, and he stopped taking orders from the Dominion. Rebellion is NOT the "conditioned response" of an orthodox Cardassian. Yet he still did it. He "shouldn't" have been strong, or capable of making that choice, by the logic of those who excuse everything by circumstance. But the fact that he did it anyway proves that it is indeed possible, and that the standard really is not set too high.

And in the end, I think that proves my point rather than yours...that it is under all circumstances a matter of choice. I could point to real-life examples as well, but even staying with this one, I think my point holds.

No, its no right thing to do, Iagree there, but doesn´t it arouse some sort of sympathy and understanding, especially when the wfe you are married to is not going to give you love?

And again, that's why I think either a) working through the problems or b) getting a divorce are the correct choices. Divorce is tragic but at least it's honest, compared to cheating. But if divorce is absolutely, 100% impossible, then I think one's concern has to be for the children, if there are any in the relationship. Damar's children didn't do anything to deserve anything less than a loving home for them to grow up in, with a mother and father who are both willing to put their needs first--even if that means putting their own conflicts second.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Or maybe Weyoun and Damar were lovers, and Weyoun was jealous.

Definitely!

Dukat's implicated in there too, somewhere. Garak also maybe.

I've been reading too many fanfics.

For the record, I don't think Weyoun was banging anyone. It's unclear if the Vorta even have sex at all. The only thing that's certain is that he was interested in another people's sex lives and loved to make fun of them for it. Which was the very obvious context of that comment.

Yeah Weyoun definitely viewed other species' mating habits as bizarre and hilarious.

 

[DevilEyes]

Divorce is tragic but at least it's honest, compared to cheating. But if divorce is absolutely, 100% impossible, then I think one's concern has to be for the children, if there are any in the relationship. Damar's children didn't do anything to deserve anything less than a loving home for them to grow up in, with a mother and father who are both willing to put their needs first--even if that means putting their own conflicts second.

No, it's not tragic. If anything, staying married to someone you don't love is tragic. Divorce is the only proper and logical outcome of a miserable, loveless marriage. As for the children, IMO it's much better for their parents to be "happily divorced" - if they can get along all right, don't hate each other and don't get into ugly custody battles - than to live in a marriage that is nothing but sham and misery, allegedly "for the sake of the children".

In the past - and even now, in some cultures - people didn't have a choice and had to marry people that others had chosen for them. Unlike you, I don't think those people owed anyone any "fidelity", since arranged marriages are, IMO, deeply wrong on every level and a complete travesty of the idea of marriage as a lifelong union of people who will "love and cherish" each other. If anyone in those circumstances had affairs, it was the marriage that was wrong, not the affairs. Nobody should ever be forced to live with, have sex with, share their life with someone they did not choose out of their own free will, by their families, societal pressure, a misplaced sense of "duty", or whatever else.

But in the circumstances where people have a choice and choose the person they are with and wow to be faithful to them (either in legal marriage, common law marriage, long term relationship, doesn't matter), those vows are really important, because it's something you genuinely pledge to yourself and that other person. Sadly, people who are in love often believe that they will always love that person - but then some day they realize that they don't feel the same.

In my ideal world, people would always be honest about their feelings, and they would be together only if they truly love each other, they would stay together throughout problems and hardships because of that love... But if they did not really love each other, they would be honest and end the relationship. However, I am aware that people are not perfect and that things are not always that simple. A lot of times people aren't even sure if they still love someone or not, and in many cases people are with someone just out of habit, or because they are scared of being alone. Personally, I'd always rather be single than be with someone just for the sake of being with anyone - but a shocking number of people seem to be together just because they don't want to be alone and they think there's nothing better out there.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

DevilEyes--you have definitely misconstrued the entire point I was trying to make.

Divorce IS tragic. It is the end-state of a relationship gone horribly wrong, and it takes a lot of pain and heartache to get to that point. It is foolish to ignore that aspect. But I have already stated time and time again in this thread that it is a preferable alternative to cheating because at least it is HONEST. The dissatisfied parties actually have to have the stones to SAY that they no longer want to be with that person, to actually say it to that person's face, whereas the cheater takes the coward's way out.

You act as though I do not support the right to divorce. I do. I do not think arranged marriage is a good idea, either. What I AM saying is that if the option of getting out of the relationship in an honest fashion is removed, then the children DO have to come first. Taking out your own bad situation on your kids is the epitome of selfishness. I had THOUGHT it was abundantly clear that such a bad situation comes about because of the removal of the way out of it. Yet you have twisted my words around to make me look like an ADVOCATE of arranged marriages. Wrong!!!

 

[StarryEyed]

Sadly, people who are in love often believe that they will always love that person - but then some day they realize that they don't feel the same.

This is reality. Mating for life may work fine for swans but I always thought it was completely unrealistic for people. Sure, it will work out fine in some cases but that is going to be the exception.

You know why there is so much divorce?

Because so many people get married!

You know why there is so much infidelity?

Because so many people enter into exclusive relationships!

You want less divorce and less infidelity? Take away the stigma of alternate lifestyles. Than, many more people entering marriage or other exclusive relationships will be doing so because they really believe in it - not because they feel forced because it's the only game in town.

 

[TerokNor]

[/QUOTE]Just because one can see how he got from Point A to Point B doesn't make it right.

And the ironic thing is that in the end, Damar DID make a choice, despite every single circumstance you cite that "should have" prevented him from ever doing so. He chose to acknowledge that he had an alcohol problem. [/QUOTE]

But he HAD to walk this way from A to B, with all its fault, to be ABLE to in the end make his choices and the right ones. He had to fall down to the botton, if he had not, if he had not felt that crushing and deadly desperation, he would not have gotten to the point where the choice (either giving himself and Cardassia up or saving himself and Cardassia) he had to made had become clear to him.
Here the saying "The way is the goal" fits in nicely... even when the way might be a dark one. It was the way that made him understand and get him active in the end and his strengh grew out of his pain.

I still agree with you that honesty is the BEST way, but its not for everyone to every time in every situation a possibel way, because the one first has to grow. For the character of Damar it just was not a possibel way first, he was not grown enough in himself and it became only possibel, because of the dark way, the debate with himself, the mistakes he made.... The Kanar and the lady-friends where on the one hand things that made the darkness even darker on the other hand things that helped him to not get shallowed up by all the sorrow and pressure and fear.
They were like symptoms to a greater illness... and he sees the illness in the end, because of the symtoms shocking him....the shock (and his mentors advice, to whom he still feels bounded and the humiliation of having the Breen over him) are the things that let him grow..so that he than has the possibility to walk a different, more honest, way.

TerokNor

P.S. The Avatar you made is great!

 

[DevilEyes]

DevilEyes--you have definitely misconstrued the entire point I was trying to make.

Divorce IS tragic. It is the end-state of a relationship gone horribly wrong, and it takes a lot of pain and heartache to get to that point. It is foolish to ignore that aspect. But I have already stated time and time again in this thread that it is a preferable alternative to cheating because at least it is HONEST. The dissatisfied parties actually have to have the stones to SAY that they no longer want to be with that person, to actually say it to that person's face, whereas the cheater takes the coward's way out.

You act as though I do not support the right to divorce. I do. I do not think arranged marriage is a good idea, either. What I AM saying is that if the option of getting out of the relationship in an honest fashion is removed, then the children DO have to come first. Taking out your own bad situation on your kids is the epitome of selfishness. I had THOUGHT it was abundantly clear that such a bad situation comes about because of the removal of the way out of it. Yet you have twisted my words around to make me look like an ADVOCATE of arranged marriages. Wrong!!!

That wasn't my intention and I didn't think you supported arranged marriages. I was responding to your statement a few pages back that people still have to be faithful to the people they're married to even if it was an arranged marriage.

And I was aware that you said that divorce is preferable to cheating, but I just don't agree that it's "tragic". That word should be reserved for things like people dying a violent death, people being raped, tortured, murdered, children being abused, people living in slavery or in an oppressive society, and so on. Divorce is not something I'd characterize as "tragic".

Sadly, people who are in love often believe that they will always love that person - but then some day they realize that they don't feel the same.

This is reality. Mating for life may work fine for swans but I always thought it was completely unrealistic for people. Sure, it will work out fine in some cases but that is going to be the exception.

You know why there is so much divorce?

Because so many people get married!

You know why there is so much infidelity?

Because so many people enter into exclusive relationships!

You want less divorce and less infidelity? Take away the stigma of alternate lifestyles. Than, many more people entering marriage or other exclusive relationships will be doing so because they really believe in it - not because they feel forced because it's the only game in town.

I agree that people should feel that they have a choice.

But I'm not a believer in open relationships. If it works for some people, good for them, but I can't see it working for many people, due to the same thing that is responsible for infidelity, divorces, breakups etc.: human nature. Expecting people to just accept their partner having other partners without being jealous, is based on an idealized view of human nature just as much as the expectation that everyone will be able to be in love with the same person and faithful and devoted to them to the end of their lives. Both expectations are equally unrealistic, or, alternatively, they would both require many people to work hard to suppress their most basic emotions out of sense that they are morally inappropriate. And I think you'll find that, just as many people who believe in long-term monogamy and fidelity fail to live up to that, at least as many people who would opt for open relationships and swear that they would never let jealousy get in the way, would end up failing to live up to that.