Damar & Infidelity in the 24th Century

[snakespeare]

Before the military dictatorship, there government was oligarchic. Their marriages are often marriages of convenience to tie politic factions together.

You actually have no idea what the form of government was before the military takeover. We DO know that 500 years prior, before the creation of the Union, that the Cardassians (probably called Hebitians then) were peaceful and very religious.

We may actually be looking at a more Bajor-like society pre-Union, and given that, all bets are off as to what their customs were before the military took over.

They were still an oligarchy even after the military coup. Just look at the family ties. Enabran Tain and Elim Garak, clearly power consolidated along family lines. I think there are a lot of examples, but I need to spend time seeking out the exact quotes. You know, the push toward oligarchy is present in every system, that's why the French guillotined their royalty. I can only say, until I find you better evidence, that whenever they talk about Cardassia society, it seems to be about powerful families.

So that's why family is so important to them. If you embarass the family, it affects their livelihood, and any future chance at power. And that's why they have so many secrets. That's why they share their secrets with their children when they die. If my family has a secret about your family, my son can hold it against your daughter and maintain the power for the next generation. They aren't seeking forgiveness with their deathbed confessions, they are consolidating power.

Unless I am misusing the word "oligarchy". Am I?

 

[Photon]

Unless you're Flox's species-its just wrong. If Damar was single and getting a little local the local ho it'd be OK. Things change when you're married. Here that Tiger

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Before the military dictatorship, there government was oligarchic. Their marriages are often marriages of convenience to tie politic factions together.

You actually have no idea what the form of government was before the military takeover. We DO know that 500 years prior, before the creation of the Union, that the Cardassians (probably called Hebitians then) were peaceful and very religious.

We may actually be looking at a more Bajor-like society pre-Union, and given that, all bets are off as to what their customs were before the military took over.

They were still an oligarchy even after the military coup. Just look at the family ties. Enabran Tain and Elim Garak, clearly power consolidated along family lines. I think there are a lot of examples, but I need to spend time seeking out the exact quotes. You know, the push toward oligarchy is present in every system, that's why the French guillotined their royalty. I can only say, until I find you better evidence, that whenever they talk about Cardassia society, it seems to be about powerful families.

So that's why family is so important to them. If you embarass the family, it affects their livelihood, and any future chance at power. And that's why they have so many secrets. That's why they share their secrets with their children when they die. If my family has a secret about your family, my son can hold it against your daughter and maintain the power for the next generation. They aren't seeking forgiveness with their deathbed confessions, they are consolidating power.

Unless I am misusing the word "oligarchy". Am I?

No, but you are only proving your case for AFTER the totalitarian takeover. In that case I believe that there are certain families that wield great political power and manipulate the system to their ends.

However, you have proven nothing for BEFORE the takeover, as there is never any statement made onscreen telling us what the form of government was beforehand. Literally the grand total of what we know is that they were a highly religious society. We have no idea what form of government there was then, whether it be monarchy, some form of democracy, theocratic rule, or what.

 

[Myasishchev]

The only pleasure the Vorta get is from eating certain nuts and fruits. It is something the Founders did to remind them of their roots; to remind them that they were just genetically enhanced animals.

Hell, there's no reason for the Vorta to even have genitals. Secondary sexual characteristics may have been there in current models in order not to freak out the primarily sexually dimorphic aliens with whom they dealt diplomatically.

No offense to Temis the Vorta, of course, whom I am sure is, in fact, gendered.

I think Damar probably was violating a taboo (or, considering it's Cardassian society, an actual law) by sleeping around.

Out of curiosity, does anyone recall any instance of a human cheating on a spouse or significant other at all? I can't really think of any (Picard possibly cuckolding Jack Crusher doesn't count).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Out of curiosity, does anyone recall any instance of a human cheating on a spouse or significant other at all? I can't really think of any (Picard possibly cuckolding Jack Crusher doesn't count).

Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton...

Oops, that's not what you meant...

As to your REAL question, I'm not really sure.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I can't believe people think Damar's wife and child deserved to die because he strayed.

I'm not condoning cheating, but that's just way out of line. So Damar got drunk and had a wandering eye. He clearly regretted it later. I don't care what he's done, NOBODY deserves to lose family like that.

Anyone who blames Damar *or* his family for what happened is, IMHO, just indulging in petty righteous anger and fake moral outrage. You know what they say about casting the first stone and all that.

 

[Vulcan Princess]

Out of curiosity, does anyone recall any instance of a human cheating on a spouse or significant other at all? I can't really think of any (Picard possibly cuckolding Jack Crusher doesn't count).

I can't think of any outright cheating by humans on Star Trek. O'Brien had a close call with Kira in Looking for Par'Mach in All the Wrong Places. I thought the runabout scene where they looked temptation squarely in the eye and resisted it was a powerful statement on fidelity.

On Voyager, Janeway's fiance, Mark, married another woman. Of course, he thought she was dead, so it's not the same as cheating. Harry had a fiancee back home, if I recall correctly, but he did date/have sex while on Voyager. I'm not sure if he sent her a Dear Jane before doing so, though.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I can't believe people think Damar's wife and child deserved to die because he strayed.

I'm not condoning cheating, but that's just way out of line. So Damar got drunk and had a wandering eye. He clearly regretted it later. I don't care what he's done, NOBODY deserves to lose family like that.

Anyone who blames Damar *or* his family for what happened is, IMHO, just indulging in petty righteous anger and fake moral outrage. You know what they say about casting the first stone and all that.

I didn't say they deserved to die. I suppose what I'm getting it is that when he found out his family had been killed, I wished we hadn't seen him cheating. I wanted to just feel bad for him, but instead, I remembered what he did and was sickened by it.

Thanks for the replies, everybody. It's fascinating to me to consider that Damar's act may be the only blatant instance of cheating on a spouse we've seen on Star Trek. Perhaps that's another reason it upset me so much.

This reminds me of Picard's words from "Star Trek: First Contact" about the "evolved sensibility" of the 24th century. It's nice to think that in addition to 'evolving' past the need for wealth, humans have also matured to the point where infidelity is no longer commonplace. Apparently revenge is still going strong, though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I would say that seeing Damar cheating doesn't diminish the loss he suffered. He doesn't deserve to lose his family, either. That said, I'm sure his pain was far worse knowing that he was disloyal to them--and who knows if he had the chance to confess and apologize before they died? We know Cardassians carry guilt for a long time, that this is a strong part of their culture...so I'm sure he really had to be questioning himself pretty intensely. Thinking "ha ha, he deserved it" makes no sense. Rather, I think we should recognize that his pain would be doubly intense because of what happened. Believe me, if the guy is as decent as he was shown to be at the end, he would be punishing himself far more than enough.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Out of curiosity, does anyone recall any instance of a human cheating on a spouse or significant other at all? I can't really think of any (Picard possibly cuckolding Jack Crusher doesn't count).

Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton...

Oops, that's not what you meant...

Come now, Nerys. As we all know:

"Ah want you t' listen t' me--Ah'm gonna say this again:

Ah did not--have--sexual--relations with that wuman--with Miss L'wisnsky--Ah never told anybody t' lah--not a single time--never. These allegations are false, and Ah need t' go back t' work--for th' American People. Thank you."

(Hey--that was my first political memory. So help me, I actually believed him.

I wonder if Gul Dukat ever said something like that...?)



In all seriousness, I think a big part of Damar's intense guilt could have been, "I lost her...and I never got a chance...to tell her the truth."

 

[Sci]

This reminds me of Picard's words from "Star Trek: First Contact" about the "evolved sensibility" of the 24th century. It's nice to think that in addition to 'evolving' past the need for wealth, humans have also matured to the point where infidelity is no longer commonplace. Apparently revenge is still going strong, though.

Well, the first thing I'd point out is that Damar is a Cardassian, not a Human and not a Federate.

As for whether or not Federation Humans cheat on their spouses... I'd point out that the point of Star Trek: First Contact was that Picard was wrong: Humanity hadn't evolved. Human beings in the 24th Century have the same nature as Humans of the 21st. They are still susceptible to all sorts of horrible temptations, and the idea that they had "evolved" beyond such things was pure propaganda -- propaganda that made it harder for Picard to recognize how wrong he was and how bad he was behaving.

Humans of the 24th Century have not evolved beyond any damn thing. It's just that they make better choices.

As for the original question... Well, the novel Harbinger by David Mack is the first novel in the Star Trek: Vanguard series, set during TOS. In that novel, at the beginning, we meet a married journalist named Tim Pennington who is having an affair with a married female officer from the U.S.S. Bombay. And what happens to him in that novel sets him on his journey towards becoming the Pennington after whom is named the Pennington School of Journalism that Jake applied to in DS9.

 

[Myasishchev]

^And at any rate, Gene Roddenberry's concept of "evolved humanity" would probably have "evolved" in the direction of no longer attaching a possessiveness to other people's sexual activities. I mean, c'mon, it's Gene Roddenberry.

(That this attitude would probably actually be better, if orders of magnitude more difficult to achieve than the Great Bird would suppose, is merely coincidental.)

I have read Harbinger. I rather liked Pennington. However, Mack does suppose that human sexual fidelity issues in the mid-23d century are pretty much identical, at least for Mr. D'Amato and Mrs. Pennington, to 20th century ones, which is not particularly fun.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^And at any rate, Gene Roddenberry's concept of "evolved humanity" would probably have "evolved" in the direction of no longer attaching a possessiveness to other people's sexual activities. I mean, c'mon, it's Gene Roddenberry.

It's funny--the Bird actually once said something about 23rd-century marriages being "contracts" that were renewed every so often. If they weren't renewed by both parties, the marriage was effectively over. Many of the old books refer to this.

My response? ......

As for whether or not Federation Humans cheat on their spouses... I'd point out that the point of Star Trek: First Contact was that Picard was wrong: Humanity hadn't evolved. Human beings in the 24th Century have the same nature as Humans of the 21st. They are still susceptible to all sorts of horrible temptations, and the idea that they had "evolved" beyond such things was pure propaganda -- propaganda that made it harder for Picard to recognize how wrong he was and how bad he was behaving.

Humans of the 24th Century have not evolved beyond any damn thing. It's just that they make better choices.

Okay...but playing Devil's Advocate, I must ask you...what is it that causes Humans to make better choices?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

(I wonder if Gul Dukat ever said something like that...?)

Wouldn't surprise me...then again, he got kicked out pretty quick as soon as he revealed Ziyal to Cardassia, so I'm not sure he ever had the time to cook up any excuses.

In all seriousness, I think a big part of Damar's intense guilt could have been, "I lost her...and I never got a chance...to tell her the truth."

That could well be.

^And at any rate, Gene Roddenberry's concept of "evolved humanity" would probably have "evolved" in the direction of no longer attaching a possessiveness to other people's sexual activities. I mean, c'mon, it's Gene Roddenberry.

It's funny--the Bird actually once said something about 23rd-century marriages being "contracts" that were renewed every so often. If they weren't renewed by both parties, the marriage was effectively over. Many of the old books refer to this.

My respinse? ......

I agree...it seems that if that's the case, why not eliminate the institution altogether, rather than leave behind something that has no meaning and no significance?

 

[Myasishchev]

Presumably the existence of a written document would establish the ground rules for the relationship--what level of fidelity is expected from each partner, and for what duration. It would make things easier in the sense any spouse could point to the document and say, "Just look, it's right there in black and white, right above your signature. Clause XVI: oral sex with Vulcans does not constitute a breach of this marriage agreement."

On the other hand, contracts for marriage are a lot like contracts for human slavery, and hence tend not to be enforceable, like, at all. You can't exactly put a clause in a contract that ensures sex five times a month. Aside from the obvious objection that sex cannot be the subject of a contract in most jurisdictions--this may not apply in the 23d century--how do you enforce that? You don't.

Indeed, not only can't you specifically enforce your contract, you can't even get damages for the breach. Hence a marriage contract has no value today... I can't enforce any rights, I can't sue for damages, and I can't assign my marriage in a collateral contract. So it's completely valueless already, other than as a symbol of commitment (tax benefits notwithstanding)... in fact, the value may be negative, because it takes an awful lot more work to rescind than any other contract. Options to renew would possibly be better in that regard.

 

[iguana_tonante]

It's funny--the Bird actually once said something about 23rd-century marriages being "contracts" that were renewed every so often. If they weren't renewed by both parties, the marriage was effectively over. Many of the old books refer to this.

My respinse? ......

Well, it's not much different from now. Sign a bunch of papers and you are married, sign a bunch of papers and you are divorced. Renewable fixed-term marriages sounds easier and simpler.

 

[Sci]

As for whether or not Federation Humans cheat on their spouses... I'd point out that the point of Star Trek: First Contact was that Picard was wrong: Humanity hadn't evolved. Human beings in the 24th Century have the same nature as Humans of the 21st. They are still susceptible to all sorts of horrible temptations, and the idea that they had "evolved" beyond such things was pure propaganda -- propaganda that made it harder for Picard to recognize how wrong he was and how bad he was behaving.

Humans of the 24th Century have not evolved beyond any damn thing. It's just that they make better choices.

Okay...but playing Devil's Advocate, I must ask you...what is it that causes Humans to make better choices?

My personal theory is that it's a combination of a superior, universally-available education system; the lack of the negative effects of poverty on childhood mental development stemming from the final abolition of poverty and economic classism; the presence of a highly-effective, universally accessible mental health system; and the final triumph of liberal democracy and leftist political value systems.

 

[Myasishchev]

Interestingly, from a 24th century POV, the attitude of most humans we see is probably that of retrenched conservative, since the political consensus on the socialization of the economy and individual liberty for the naturally born people of any species has been in place for two hundred some-odd years.

Progressivism might take on strange new forms, like a Borg-sympathetic faction in the Federation, or AI activists, or even capitalists.

 

[Sci]

Interestingly, from a 24th century POV, the attitude of most humans we see is probably that of retrenched conservative, since the political consensus on the socialization of the economy and individual liberty for the naturally born people of any species has been in place for two hundred some-odd years.

Progressivism might take on strange new forms, like a Borg-sympathetic faction in the Federation, or AI activists, or even capitalists.

Well, we do know from VOY's "Author, Author" that there are activists who believe that some holoprograms, such as the various Emergency Medical Holograms, are sentient and deserve equal rights, even as the Federation government uses them as a source of what I would call slave labor.

It's certainly fair to suggest that we we call leftist political values would to the Federation considered conservatism. But, that's kinda my point when I say "final triumph" -- the final replacement of what we today call conservatism with what we today call liberalism or progressivism.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's funny--the Bird actually once said something about 23rd-century marriages being "contracts" that were renewed every so often. If they weren't renewed by both parties, the marriage was effectively over. Many of the old books refer to this.

My respinse? ......

Well, it's not much different from now. Sign a bunch of papers and you are married, sign a bunch of papers and you are divorced. Renewable fixed-term marriages sounds easier and simpler.

And they say romance is dead...