Dalek history question

[Professor Zoom]

Precisely the standpoint I'm proceeding from. I simply can't help wondering what happened to Susan on 22nd century Earth, assuming the Dalek invasion didn't happen then.

Once time changed, she stopped existing. POOF! Gone. Susan who?

That dirty bastard! He killed his own grand-daughter - I never trusted him to start with...

You shouldn't. Not with the way he's always changing faces.

 

[JoeZhang]

Once time changed, she stopped existing. POOF! Gone. Susan who?

That dirty bastard! He killed his own grand-daughter - I never trusted him to start with...

You shouldn't. Not with the way he's always changing faces.

Notice as well how he got a cushy number as a government adviser to something called UNIT using a fake name (and I'm guessing fake national insurance number) - some sort of EU thing paid for by the british taxpayer. Why wasn't a brit considered for this job rather than an illegal alien?

Questions should be asked.

 

[DWF]

Here's the two Dalek histories and yes Davros makes the difference.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory1.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory2.shtml

 

[starsuperion]

No.

No.

No.

No.

No.

No.

No.

No.

It is a fictional construct that has been around for nearly fifty years and has never ever been intended to make much sense when it comes to continuity because of multiple minds working on it over the years.

Please accept that for once and it will mean you'll be happier and so will everyone else.

Does that mean we shouldn't wonder then? We shouldn't think? That we should never, ever go "Hang on a minute, what about...?" This idea a lot of fans seem to have that we should never question what we see is a distressing one, and one that I hope will eventually disappear. The TrekBBS is for debating, and that's precisely what I'm doing. The hostility towards this in the DW section is astounding, to say the least.

Not in the slightest. I just feel that trying to connect all the dots when it comes to the sometimes massive continuity issues that you seem to do is a massive act of futility. And it is not the first time that you've come in here and wanted to connect multiple events across the decades that Who has exsisted.

And it's really not a case of not caring, it's a case of actually realising that Who's been around a long time, it's had multiple "chefs" chucking in ingrediants, taking them out and mixing them around everyonce in a while and even though they know what's happened before, they just want to stamp their own brand on the programme.

As for hostile, I can't talk for others, for me, it's more a case of bemused irritation, but are you that surprised if some quarters are hostile to your threads? Doctor Who hasn't exactly ever been serious about its continuity, so why on earth should we, the viewers be so. It's a Television programme. A Childrens Televison programme at that and is meant primarily as a bit of fun.

Trying to connect everything just sucks the fun right out it.

I have to chime in here, because this particular banter is relevant but should actually be the subject of a separate discussion thread, being that it is one of immense contention between Whovian fans.

There are those who can't bring themselves to rationalize a particular storyline, or continuity because it is simply too complicated to understand and "sucks their fun out of watching the series."

likewise, there are those fans who revel in the continuity and enjoy a good romp through the rationale to figure out a coherent storyline that satisfies their need for stability.

Are either of you wrong? In my opinion, no.. however, to Dimesdan's point if this thread bothers you that much then simply do not reply to it. If the concept of another fan wanting to discuss a rationale behind the History of a particular Doctor who character is irritating enough then ignore the post and move on, why bother bringing that angst here, when you could be so much more useful and "POSITIVE" else where? I prefer these days to hang with and converse with only positive people when and where ever possible, including internet chat forums, simply because the hum drum day to day and news cycles are so negative by nature.

So please let those who want to revel in their WHOVIAN realms of hypothetical musings enjoy such fun without interjecting the same tired reasonings of:

"it's a kids show"
"If you don't like it watch something else"
"Doctor who continuity has always been screwy so why bother trying"
"it's just bigger on the inside, get over it"
"wibbly, wobbly, timey, wimey explains it all"


as to your point of continuity, that simply because it is a kids programme that their should be none, or it doesn't matter, let me direct your attention to various cartoon shows which hold continuity in high esteem..

Transformers
Gi Joe
Star Trek
Robotech
Gundam
and so on and so forth..

I must, on that note sir, respectfully disagree with your reasoning and premise.

Cheers!

 

[Admiral_Young]

I'll say that I've no qualms about bantering about continuity with fans. EJA though doesn't seem to want to do that. He'll post something, then ask people's opinions and if those opinions contrast with his he'll ignore what you post and reinforce something that he has stated or pick out something that helps his point . This happens in almost all of his threads on continuity and history. I'm interested in the same stuff he is. The thing is he makes it incredibly difficult and frustrating to carry on a proper debate because of the way he chooses to have his own continuity. Why bother posting if you are not willing to accept others opinions?

 

[Davros]

Perhaps the Doctor did the opposite: he didn't *alter* Dalek history, he was part of what was supposed to happen all along. Meaning: All of his previous encounters with the Daleks were part of the timeline established in "Genesis...", not alternate to it.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[JoeZhang]

as to your point of continuity, that simply because it is a kids programme that their should be none, or it doesn't matter, let me direct your attention to various cartoon shows which hold continuity in high esteem..

Transformers
Gi Joe
Star Trek
Robotech
Gundam
and so on and so forth..

I must, on that note sir, respectfully disagree with your reasoning and premise.

Cheers!

But those shows are all for chronic masturbators who spend too long draw charts drawing to fit stuff together - you are comparing chalk with cheese. Doctor Who occupies a different space entirely.

If you went to the pub and said you were running late because Doctor Who ran over, in the day and age, I don't think most people will not blink - indeed, it's actually on in my boozer when it's running. If you said you were running late because you were watching GI Joe, you'd be forever marked down as a saddo. Attempts to have an american type fandom around Doctor Who find resistance for the same reason - it's just too sad for most people watching the show.

 

[Starkers]

That dirty bastard! He killed his own grand-daughter - I never trusted him to start with...

You shouldn't. Not with the way he's always changing faces.

Notice as well how he got a cushy number as a government adviser to something called UNIT using a fake name (and I'm guessing fake national insurance number) - some sort of EU thing paid for by the british taxpayer. Why wasn't a brit considered for this job rather than an illegal alien?

Questions should be asked.

I'm actually surprised the Daily Mail hasn't picked up on this yet. I'm pretty sure Gallifray is outside of the European Union.

 

[EJA]

I'll say that I've no qualms about bantering about continuity with fans. EJA though doesn't seem to want to do that. He'll post something, then ask people's opinions and if those opinions contrast with his he'll ignore what you post and reinforce something that he has stated or pick out something that helps his point . This happens in almost all of his threads on continuity and history. I'm interested in the same stuff he is. The thing is he makes it incredibly difficult and frustrating to carry on a proper debate because of the way he chooses to have his own continuity. Why bother posting if you are not willing to accept others opinions?

I listen to what other people have to say; I take it into consideration. That doesn't mean I have to automatically accept their viewpoint as correct, particularly if I feel that it doesn't answer my queries adequately.

 

[EJA]

Trying to connect everything just sucks the fun right out it.

I beg to differ.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here's the two Dalek histories and yes Davros makes the difference.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory1.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory2.shtml

Good points. I can accept this.

What I do not accept, OTOH, is DW fans somehow being above it all, being better than the rest, simply because they might not care about continuity.

And I suspect that not all such fans agree with that anyway. No show's fans are a single groupmind; there's always differences in opinion.

 

[Admiral_Young]

@EJA if what people provide or suggest doesn't fit your requirements or parameters then perhaps you should expand them or clarify them better. If you just out right reject things because they don't conform with your own personal viewpoint then what's the point of even bothering to ask and post? I'm not talking about accepting things because you don't feel like they're correct. That's a personal interpretation of things. That is why it is frustrating to debate and discuss things with you at times. I hope I'm making some sense myself.

 

[starsuperion]

I'll say that I've no qualms about bantering about continuity with fans. EJA though doesn't seem to want to do that. He'll post something, then ask people's opinions and if those opinions contrast with his he'll ignore what you post and reinforce something that he has stated or pick out something that helps his point . This happens in almost all of his threads on continuity and history. I'm interested in the same stuff he is. The thing is he makes it incredibly difficult and frustrating to carry on a proper debate because of the way he chooses to have his own continuity. Why bother posting if you are not willing to accept others opinions?

ahh... I was unaware of that particular point.. good to know, thanks Admiral

I think varying points of view should be debated where continuity is concerned.. no one has the right answer, but one could gain a different rationale, and obtain useful insight that a close minded assumption would thereby not.

But those shows are all for chronic masturbators who spend too long draw charts drawing to fit stuff together - you are comparing chalk with cheese. Doctor Who occupies a different space entirely.

I thought that it was the Tardis that occupied a different space entirely and not the show..LOL

If you went to the pub and said you were running late because Doctor Who ran over, in the day and age, I don't think most people will not blink - indeed, it's actually on in my boozer when it's running. If you said you were running late because you were watching GI Joe, you'd be forever marked down as a saddo. Attempts to have an american type fandom around Doctor Who find resistance for the same reason - it's just too sad for most people watching the show.

You misunderstand me.. I was talking purely in the context of Doctor who is considered a kids show, and Dimesdan's premise is that because it is a kids programme, continuity doesn't matter..

my rebuttal using American cartoons (which are kids shows) have continuity in them, on some occasions they screw up, and that is what the comics are for.. but you cannot say that Transformers is purely an American show.. or Property..

Hello Simon Furhman

All I am saying is that in my opinion, just because Doctor who is "supposed" to be for the kiddies, it doesn't necessarily mean that it should not have continuity within it's story lines..kids aren't that stupid, even the ones running around these days.

I do have to say that currently the continuity between Doctor who series has been overall excellent. It is only in the Classic series we see a lot of deviations..

 

[EJA]

I've actually contemplated writing a story where Susan, living on 22nd century Earth, suddenly finds the world around her changed drastically in the wake of her grandfathers' actions in Genesis; the global devastation caused by the Daleks now never happened, but sadly, no one remembers who Susan is....including the man she fell in love with and married. She's now even more of an outsider.

 

[Admiral_Young]

That would be an interesting alternate story.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, remember that Timelady 10 kept looking sorryfully at in the End of Time?

One School of though is that that was Susan.

(But then it could have also as easily been his mother, his (older) daughter, or Romana.)

The audio account of the matter is that 8 returned, "fell in love" with his great grandson and they had a few adventures all together as the daleks returned with the help of the meddling monk to take over the earth again. Meanwhile years earlier (our time) 5 arrived on earth to find that the Invasion hadn't happened and he was so put out that he derailed the peace and propped up the Dalek occupation because he viewed it as a necessary item in Earths history. No mention of Susan however.

 

[EJA]

Well, remember that Timelady 10 kept looking sorryfully at in the End of Time?

One School of though is that that was Susan.

Yes, this is something that's also occured to me. It's definitely my favourite theory.

 

[Admiral_Young]

As discussed ad infinitum in other threads it's already been confirmed by RTD in his book that the old woman was the Doctor's mother...BUT fans are welcome to interpret her identity as whomever they want. Most have chosen to believe she was Susan. I personally thought she was Susan.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I always though that there was something cat and mouse going on between Flavia and 5.

If you cut and paste almost everything she ever said in Blackadder about sex with Brian blessed, it really supercharges her personality somewhat on Doctor Who.