For me Brandon Routh as Superman is still the best part of CoIE. Such a shame he doesn't get a Superman show of movie
Spoilers Crisis on Infinite Earths Discussion (CW Event Spoiler Thread)
- Thread starter Mark_Nguyen
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I know you have me on "Ignore," so you won't see this, but as I noted in another thread, I'm currently in the midst of a Superboy rewatch, and having a great time. I adore the show, even at its worst (and as you note, its worst is pretty bad); it's exactly my flavor of cheese.
I love Routh as Superman, but his otherwise wonderful appearance in "CoIE" is colored a little negatively by how many people took it as an opportunity to dump on Tyler Hoechlin by comparison, which is something Hoechlin absolutely doesn't deserve.
I agree Hoechlin doesn't deserves that, he is a fine Superman, I like him in Supergirl.
But I only mean that I love Routh as Superman, he was great in Returns even when the movie wasn't great. And his speech in COIE over darknes and hope was great and gave me goosebumps. You could see he was hurt but hasnt given up
In my opinion Routh is the best Superman maybe equel to Reeves
I'm with The Realist on this. The first two episodes of Crisis were very engaging, with the third dropping a bit already but still making me want more. With the first 10 minutes of the fourth I was losing interest and by the time that ended I just wanted to watch the 5th to find out how they wrapped it up.
Earth X had me engaged and interested through out all episodes, keeping things going at a good pace. I think they tried too much with Crisis to make a cohesive story with so many nods to so many other shows and movies that it was just too much for 5 episodes.
I know you weren’t saying that, I’ve just seen it a lot and it frankly pisses me off. Hoechlin is a great Superman, one of only four actors IMO who have gotten the character exactly right. (Routh is another, along with Reeve and Reeves.) But there’s been a backlash against Hoechlin among certain “fans” with fucked-up priorities for the character, and Routh’s “CoIE” appearance gave them new ammunition to disparage and dismiss Hoechlin.
All true, but as I said, the fan service in “CoIE” made everything worth it for me. Who would have thought we’d ever see Smallville’s Clark and Lois again? Or Routh’s Superman? Or see Gustin-Flash and Miller-Flash meet? Or have Gleek teased as the camera pulled away from the Hall of Justice and the Super Friends theme played? I was giddy with delight at all that stuff.
I loved all of those, although the laste one was too obscure for me. But seeing so many familiar faces, even some just as a glimpse... Yeah that made it all worth it.
Routh Superman was a highlight, certainly. I used to think he was miscast in Returns, but now I see the problem was with the directing, not the actor (since every actor in the film was directed to underact, as if they were all on tranquilizers). So this was Routh's chance to get it right at last.
Still, for me, the most powerful moment was bringing back the Earth-90 Flash and giving him such a pivotal climactic sendoff, having him be the one who saved Earth-1 Barry from his fate. I loved the 1990 Flash and appreciated all the allusions to it in the current series, so seeing it fully integrated and brought to a resolution like that was very potent.
Still, for me, the most powerful moment was bringing back the Earth-90 Flash and giving him such a pivotal climactic sendoff, having him be the one who saved Earth-1 Barry from his fate. I loved the 1990 Flash and appreciated all the allusions to it in the current series, so seeing it fully integrated and brought to a resolution like that was very potent.
^ I did like that, as well. The brief clip with Amanda Pays was a superb touch.
It was remarkable to learn from Marc Guggenheim that was an idea they first had while editing his death. Not in the original script at all.
The very first comic book verison of Barry Allen’s Origin I read was a retelling after his death. It was reprinted in a Trade Paperback of Secret Origins. He sees many events of his life and at the end we discover he becomes the lightning bolt that first gave him his powers. Implying that he will relive his life as the Flash again.
If I had the tools and knowledge I would do a fan tribute video like that. Adding a few more moments of Flash 90’s life and after his death ending with him getting struck by Lightning in the Pilot.
I was actually surprised they didn't reach out. I think the show was terrific once Gerard Christopher came on board. Only the first season really was off. They figured it out.
The Roads Not Taken episodes were awesome.
In fairness, he blew Tyler out of the water. But the actor isn't responsible for bad writing. Cavill has the same issue for other reasons.
And also in fairness, Routh's movie was not good either. If anything, COIE showed Routh's redemption.
And the script as well. Unlike the case with Superman Returns, this time, I wanted to see more of Routh. Maybe HBO Max can do something.
I'm doing a COIE rewatch this week and finished through Part 2.
Having had months to digest it and to think about it, I think that so far, they really didn't accomplish what they could have with such an ambitious project.
Done a little better, I think this could have been like the DC Infinity War/Endgame.
They would have needed better writers for that though and even more leeway.
The first takeaway is that they didn't take full advantage of their cameos and guests.
They're actually allowed to use Batman, they have Kevin Conroy, and they pick a version of Batman that was evil?
I think that was a bad mistake, but the purpose of it was to make a larger mistake, which was having Kate as a paragon. All the heroes in the multiverse and KATE is a paragon? The ONLY reason it's even acceptable is the "well, she's the star of her show so that's the way it is." That's a real world logic, but in universe, it's ridiculous.
Just take Batman--an infinite number of Batmen out there and SHE is more worthy than all of them? There's no version of WONDER WOMAN out there?
But you have to let it go because she's the title character.
I also think they dropped the ball with Routh as Superman. I almost feel bad for Hoechlin since Routh made Hoechlin look like a fanboy in cosplay meeting Superman. But we barely get to see Routh before Luthor turns him against everyone.
And that was frustrating too - the use of Luthor. I don't mind him being there. I like Luthor a lot, but when he gets in the way of a real pay off, that's a problem.
Routh's Superman should have had a much bigger role.
And that gets us to Welling. First, I hate that he just gave up his abilities. I love the idea that he has a family, and I get that maybe this was how they got Welling to agree, but let's think in universe.
The biggest lesson of Superman II was that the world needed Superman and he could never give up his powers, even if he stepped aside. What if a major threat came down? And why should he need to give up his power to retire anyway?
Clark always helped people.
I felt cheated out of a real scene with Clark and the good guys before Luthor showed up and sent them away. Hoeschlin didn't even get a chance to identify himself.
Meanwhile, Clark is told that there is a threat that could endanger the entire planet and his family of course, and he just ignores it.
What WOULD have been very cool would have been if Clark was shown at the end restoring his powers and ready to go into action as the skies turned red.
I think even with the budget, assuming that the actors salaries were reasonable, this could have been even larger. Take a few characters from non-Arrowverse series' and give them more significant parts.
Do this by having more set ups on the other shows. Instead of a drawn out plot with the blood guy from Heroes, which was boring as hell, have Flash interact in the multiverse with heroes' from other series'.
COIE wasn't bad. But it could have been better. More on this later as I rewatch other parts.
Having had months to digest it and to think about it, I think that so far, they really didn't accomplish what they could have with such an ambitious project.
Done a little better, I think this could have been like the DC Infinity War/Endgame.
They would have needed better writers for that though and even more leeway.
The first takeaway is that they didn't take full advantage of their cameos and guests.
They're actually allowed to use Batman, they have Kevin Conroy, and they pick a version of Batman that was evil?
I think that was a bad mistake, but the purpose of it was to make a larger mistake, which was having Kate as a paragon. All the heroes in the multiverse and KATE is a paragon? The ONLY reason it's even acceptable is the "well, she's the star of her show so that's the way it is." That's a real world logic, but in universe, it's ridiculous.
Just take Batman--an infinite number of Batmen out there and SHE is more worthy than all of them? There's no version of WONDER WOMAN out there?
But you have to let it go because she's the title character.
I also think they dropped the ball with Routh as Superman. I almost feel bad for Hoechlin since Routh made Hoechlin look like a fanboy in cosplay meeting Superman. But we barely get to see Routh before Luthor turns him against everyone.
And that was frustrating too - the use of Luthor. I don't mind him being there. I like Luthor a lot, but when he gets in the way of a real pay off, that's a problem.
Routh's Superman should have had a much bigger role.
And that gets us to Welling. First, I hate that he just gave up his abilities. I love the idea that he has a family, and I get that maybe this was how they got Welling to agree, but let's think in universe.
The biggest lesson of Superman II was that the world needed Superman and he could never give up his powers, even if he stepped aside. What if a major threat came down? And why should he need to give up his power to retire anyway?
Clark always helped people.
I felt cheated out of a real scene with Clark and the good guys before Luthor showed up and sent them away. Hoeschlin didn't even get a chance to identify himself.
Meanwhile, Clark is told that there is a threat that could endanger the entire planet and his family of course, and he just ignores it.
What WOULD have been very cool would have been if Clark was shown at the end restoring his powers and ready to go into action as the skies turned red.
I think even with the budget, assuming that the actors salaries were reasonable, this could have been even larger. Take a few characters from non-Arrowverse series' and give them more significant parts.
Do this by having more set ups on the other shows. Instead of a drawn out plot with the blood guy from Heroes, which was boring as hell, have Flash interact in the multiverse with heroes' from other series'.
COIE wasn't bad. But it could have been better. More on this later as I rewatch other parts.
The Paragon of Courage.
The teeny tiny little girl fights gods and monsters.
Sure Bruce is also only human, but he's the best and scariest human imaginable. Batman doesn't need courage to fight Twoface, but that girl a third his size does, especially while every bugger and his drunk uncle is lampooning her gender and sexuality.
What the universe might hand out to Bruce, for just being Bruce, is a Yellow Lantern Ring.
The teeny tiny little girl fights gods and monsters.
Sure Bruce is also only human, but he's the best and scariest human imaginable. Batman doesn't need courage to fight Twoface, but that girl a third his size does, especially while every bugger and his drunk uncle is lampooning her gender and sexuality.
What the universe might hand out to Bruce, for just being Bruce, is a Yellow Lantern Ring.
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Batman has also fought against Darkseid and other beings with powers. He has fought against Killer Croc and against multiple people. Of course it takes courage, especially to turn your personal tragedy into something more.
And not having powers doesn't make you brave either.
People don't lampoon genders of other women heroes. Maybe it's the writers there. But that's another topic. This one is that there is a multiverse out there with literally infinite people, and SHE is the paragon of courage? Wonder Woman faced off with friggin Ares. Hell, in the comics, I believe the Marvel Earth is part of the multiverse and Captain America dwarfs anything in the Arrowverse.
I believe it did and he turned it down.
But you just brought up another thought--what about Hal Jordan? The guy literally was chosen by a guardian ring due to his courage.
The ability to over come great fear is not always courage.
Sometimes it is brain damage.
Hal Jordan has Brain Damage.
Sometimes it is brain damage.
Hal Jordan has Brain Damage.
Or even keep his job. CW should really rehire him. If they don't want him on Legends anymore bring him over to the new Superman show. Mostly as Ray but hey sometimes his Superman also shows up.
Jason
But I thought Guy Gardner...never mind.
Also they over come fear with willpower not courage.
Courage is an irrational belief that you can win when you really should lose.
Ie crazy.
Courage is an irrational belief that you can win when you really should lose.
Ie crazy.
So last night I watched part 3 as I continue the rewatch.
I guess you could call parts 1-3 Infinity War and Parts 4 and 5 were Endgame, but far less epic.
Again there were issues where they dropped the ball to serve their own shows rather than do things that would make sense in the plot.
There are an infinite number of universes. There are 7 paragons, but 6 of them come from Earth 1 and Earth 38?
Only the Routh Superman made the cut, and he got replaced by wait for it, a guy from Earth 38!
At the end, when Pariah sent the paragons to Vanishing Point, why didn't he just send everyone? The only thing that made the paragons special was that the Monitor said so. It's not like they got additional power because of it. Pariah clearly had this ability, so why not use it on everyone?
Again, the Routh Superman stole the show. That's what made it so annoying that they did that move with Lex replacing him. They had to have seen the work Routh was doing. I get the idea of having Lex throw a monkey wrench into the machine, and yes, it makes perfect sense he would replace a version of Superman, but from the view of a viewer watching the story, I felt cheated out of seeing Superman do stuff.
It might have been better had they spent the earlier part of the season going through the multiverse and gathering heroes.
None of the storylines of any of the shows meant that much to me, but the COIE had my full attention.
Imagine if instead of wasting time with the blood guy, Flash spent the season going through the multiverse, and maybe finding Flash 90 and having an adventure with him, and THEN Flash 90 is taken.
Imagine Supergirl going through the multiverse and finding other versions of important characters, including a story with Hoeschlin and Routh and Welling and maybe Helen Slater as well.
The shows would remain separate, but they would all have multiverse stories (except Batwoman, because she had a new show).
The homage would be taken to the next level, but instead, all we got was Routh's only action scene show him evil.
So yeah, the end was annoying, not so much for Lex's appearance, but because of Routh's disappearance.
If Lila was so powerful that show could disable all the heroes so easily, why not just kill them all, especially Batwoman and Ryan, who were ordinary humans?
The Lucifer cameo, on second viewing, is still pretty awesome.
But it led to another issue--the introduction of Spectre was so rushed. Those who know the comics know that Spectre is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful beings out there. He literally is the hand of God. Imagine if they introduced him on Arrow before that moment so we know who he is and it's a "Hell yeah," moment. And why did Oliver have to become the Spectre when there was already a Spectre?
Why couldn't Jim Corrigan remain the Spectre while Oliver returned to the fight?
One good thing though--I don't have to wait another month to watch part 4.
I guess you could call parts 1-3 Infinity War and Parts 4 and 5 were Endgame, but far less epic.
Again there were issues where they dropped the ball to serve their own shows rather than do things that would make sense in the plot.
There are an infinite number of universes. There are 7 paragons, but 6 of them come from Earth 1 and Earth 38?
Only the Routh Superman made the cut, and he got replaced by wait for it, a guy from Earth 38!
At the end, when Pariah sent the paragons to Vanishing Point, why didn't he just send everyone? The only thing that made the paragons special was that the Monitor said so. It's not like they got additional power because of it. Pariah clearly had this ability, so why not use it on everyone?
Again, the Routh Superman stole the show. That's what made it so annoying that they did that move with Lex replacing him. They had to have seen the work Routh was doing. I get the idea of having Lex throw a monkey wrench into the machine, and yes, it makes perfect sense he would replace a version of Superman, but from the view of a viewer watching the story, I felt cheated out of seeing Superman do stuff.
It might have been better had they spent the earlier part of the season going through the multiverse and gathering heroes.
None of the storylines of any of the shows meant that much to me, but the COIE had my full attention.
Imagine if instead of wasting time with the blood guy, Flash spent the season going through the multiverse, and maybe finding Flash 90 and having an adventure with him, and THEN Flash 90 is taken.
Imagine Supergirl going through the multiverse and finding other versions of important characters, including a story with Hoeschlin and Routh and Welling and maybe Helen Slater as well.
The shows would remain separate, but they would all have multiverse stories (except Batwoman, because she had a new show).
The homage would be taken to the next level, but instead, all we got was Routh's only action scene show him evil.
So yeah, the end was annoying, not so much for Lex's appearance, but because of Routh's disappearance.
If Lila was so powerful that show could disable all the heroes so easily, why not just kill them all, especially Batwoman and Ryan, who were ordinary humans?
The Lucifer cameo, on second viewing, is still pretty awesome.
But it led to another issue--the introduction of Spectre was so rushed. Those who know the comics know that Spectre is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful beings out there. He literally is the hand of God. Imagine if they introduced him on Arrow before that moment so we know who he is and it's a "Hell yeah," moment. And why did Oliver have to become the Spectre when there was already a Spectre?
Why couldn't Jim Corrigan remain the Spectre while Oliver returned to the fight?
One good thing though--I don't have to wait another month to watch part 4.