Spoilers Crisis on Infinite Earths Discussion (CW Event Spoiler Thread)

[TREK_GOD_1]

Yeah, them destroying all the Earths knowing that they are coming back sort of takes away the dire straits from the story. They should have only destroyed a few, and keep them dead.

The biggest reason why this TV-COIE is not "powerful" or "intense" by any stretch of the imagination--and pales in comparison to the original comic. There are no true strakes three hours in--three--with all reasons & deaths either being meaningless / without impact (90s Flash), or the characters will be restored for the same reason the "snap" in Avengers: Infinity War lacked impact--you knew certain characters had sequels and/or other appearances coming up, so the "dusted" characters were obviously coming back.

For all of the "this is the greatest threat" histrionics from various characters, there's never the building consequence of the crisis.One of the comic's many strengths was showing the personal cost--even historical cost right down to minor characters, and it was not throwaway cameos, either. Like any real disaster of a large scale, the threat and cost will be felt--a real sense of the human cost, and not random glances at a screen telling you that Earth-2283959 was just destroyed. And I'm not talking about showing the disasters, but the human element. Three hours in and its standing around and the magnitude of the suggested loss not registering on the faces of anyone, with the exception of SG and for a moment, Black Lightning, before that rushed "heart-to-heart" scene.,

I get what you're saying...but a couple things would be
1) It challenges "fate" and even though he prepared the team for his death, it looks like he was wrong

But to viewers, it was clear Flash was not going to die, no matter how much the writers tried to play that "it might" card. With Flash not being a cancelled show, someone else not headlining a continuing series was going to be bumped off

2) Well, it looks like Black Lightning was added in last minute... cause it would have been more logical to have him be a paragon. I'll take it for now. Also, don't forget the quick connection with Diggle. Should we have a merged Earth, i REALLY want to see Jefferson hang out with Joe West and connect on a variety of levels.

Black Lightning's power as a series is its own world/voice/perspective of a superhero drama. That cannot work merged with series that are just not that good.

Well, speaking of forced... this was a way to have Ollie fulfill the SPectre role in the comics, without adding yet another character to getto know.

Spectre was there, but so far, he is not playing the unforgetable role he did in the comic.

Batwoman was in Elseworlds. Didn't she learn of its power (and problems) then?

Apparently not.

So a ripped page of the book still has power? Weird... and what role could he possibly play against the anti-Monitor now??

Being a "magic" book, unless someone specifically said the entire book must be whole in order to work, one might imagine each page having its own "end" of its overall purpose, allowing the user to just take what he needs--almost like a cookbook.

And regarding Jefferson, I felt his role was too light too. They are cramming so much stuff, which is fine, but perhaps this might have been better served with even more episodes. It's a very big story. It made me think though--how would Jefferson do if say, his Earth was just gone and he was forced to start a new life on Earth 1?

Well its three hours in and this "big" story involves a lot of standing around, sans the jaw-dropping substance of any conversation/announcement as in the comic. There's not much real, plot-progressing story in those three hours, and talking about Earth-409000 just bit the dust is not progression.

Regarding Black Lightning, yes, his participation appeared to be very forced, as if behind the scenes, the WB-PTB hammered Salim Akil, Mara-Brock Akil, et al., to shoehorn him into this, when there was no natural build-up, and the tones of this show are so astoundingly different than the rest of the Arrowverse shows..

That would depend on the depiction of the Spectre. Like most comic characters that go that far back, he's been handled differently over the decades. When he's interacting with other heroes, like in the old JLA/JSA crossovers, he's usually treated as a big, cosmic McGuffin or deus ex machina.

True, but comic characters who kill are as old as the medium, so someone having an issue with that about The Spectre is ridiculous, failing to no understand that it was part of what made him the Spectre. Its so intrinsically tied to the character, even as different creative teams handled him over the decades, from the More Fun Comics period of the Golden Age, the Showcase /The Brave and the Bold era of the Silver, and certainly the Adventure Comics version in the Bronze. Its almost like complaining about the Punisher killing his targets, as if that was never a major part of who he is.

 

[Christopher]

I'm a hug fan of Lucifer, so I loved his inclusion here. I hadn't expected anything from Lucifer, so I was shocked when not only was Luci himself in it, but he actually played an active role in the story. Now I'm hoping they can manage to fit a Constantine appearance in Lucifer somewhere.

Well, it's a Netflix original now, and Netflix carries the Arrowverse back catalog, so it's conceivable.

Reportedly, the scene was intended to come before the start of the Lucifer series, which was why he was in full shallow-hedonist mode. It's another example of worlds not being in chronological sync, like the 2046 Earth in Part 1 or the Jonah Hex Earth in Part 2. But it does reassure us that the worlds will be restored, since it basically means the entire Lucifer series occurs post-Crisis.

(Also, if you check out the lower right corner of the establishing shot of Earth-666, there's a Watchmen billboard next door to Lucifer's club.)

I had been assuming Flash 90 was going to be the one to die, so that didn't surprise me, but it was a very well done scene.

It kind of makes me wish that Flash-90 had been the speedster in Jay Garrick's place all along, so that he and Barry would have that history to pay off here. While in some ways Jay was the right choice because of the comics history, in other ways he's always been a stand-in for Shipp's original Flash.

Oliver becoming The Spectre was a big surprise, I'm curious to see if that is his final fate, or if there's some other twist added to his story after the Anti-Monitor is defeated.

I think it'll stick. I mean, green hood, avenging injustice -- it's like the role was made for him.

The introduction of Ryan Choi was good, it'll be interesting to see what leads to him taking over for Ray.

Not sure what to make of the character yet, but the actor was effective and sympathetic.

The introduction of Black Lightning was pretty good, I liked the scene with him and Barry on the Waverider.

I would've liked to see a scene between him and Diggle. I think they'd hit it off.

I'm not to disappointed they got rid of Routh Superman, Lex is a much more important figure for these shows, so I can see having him there instead.

Speaking of which, am I the only one who noticed that the shot of the dying/disappearing Earth-96 Superman cradled in Supergirl's arms was roughly an inversion of the classic Crisis "Death of Supergirl" cover? IIRC, they said they picked out five key images from CoIE and homaged one in each episode. I wonder what the first two were.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

They remembered that Superman is a comic book character in Black Lightning’s Earth. That was a nice callback.

Yes, which goes a long way in also proving that all along, Supergirl was never supposed to be real in the Black Lightning universe up to this point--just a fictional character / subject of a Blu-ray ad.

 

[Admiral2]

Incidentally, I'm a bit disappointed to learn that Flash-90 married Tina McGee instead of Megan Lockhart.

As a lifelong devotee of Amanda Pays, I'm totally fine with it.

 

[Scout101]

Speaking of which, am I the only one who noticed that the shot of the dying/disappearing Earth-96 Superman cradled in Supergirl's arms was roughly an inversion of the classic Crisis "Death of Supergirl" cover?

No, was assuming that most people that remembered the comic would have picked up on that, especially since they weren't going to kill Supergirl. not sure about 1 image per episode, but thought the 'Flash dying on the treadmill' bit was another iconic one I remember.

Random question, but since the Elseworlds episodes were brought up again: when did that happen from Kate's point of view? Her show has been pretty linear, and everyone's talking about the events that happened 'last year' and whatnot, but it hasn't been that long for her TOTAL, much less since the last crossover. It had to have been after she was active a while, as she didn't have the red hair/custom suit when she started, hadn't established herself, etc. Know it was a backdoor pilot and whatnot, but having trouble fitting what she did last year into her current storyline. And no, not an alternate version of her, as this version remembers it happening...

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Kate was brought into the future for CoIE, which is why Kara referred to Elseworlds as "last year".

 

[Ssosmcin]

I really do have to roll my eyes at the meta comments like "ignore him, it's his first crossover." I know these folks are "crossing over" from other Earth's but some of these quips are a little on the nose.

 

[Greg Cox]

True, but comic characters who kill are as old as the medium, so someone having an issue with that about The Spectre is ridiculous, failing to no understand that it was part of what made him the Spectre. Its so intrinsically tied to the character, even as different creative teams handled him over the decades, from the More Fun Comics period of the Golden Age, the Showcase /The Brave and the Bold era of the Silver, and certainly the Adventure Comics version in the Bronze. Its almost like complaining about the Punisher killing his targets, as if that was never a major part of who he is.

The Spectre is actually one of my all-time favorite comic-book characters, probably because he combines two of my favorite things: superheroes and horror. The morality of his vengeance doesn't bother me because it comes out of the horror genre. Turning somebody into a log and running them though a sawmill is straight out of the E.C. Comics, TALES OF THE CRYPT playbook when it comes to cruel, ironic "justice." The idea is to provoke shivers . . . .

I sat up straight up straight when Corrigan appeared without warning. I'm disappointed that he didn't go full-blown Spectre on us, green cloak and cape and all, but I'm still holding out hope for a SPECTRE movie or TV series before this Golden Age of Comic-Book Media runs its course.

 

[Christopher]

Random question, but since the Elseworlds episodes were brought up again: when did that happen from Kate's point of view? Her show has been pretty linear, and everyone's talking about the events that happened 'last year' and whatnot, but it hasn't been that long for her TOTAL, much less since the last crossover. It had to have been after she was active a while, as she didn't have the red hair/custom suit when she started, hadn't established herself, etc. Know it was a backdoor pilot and whatnot, but having trouble fitting what she did last year into her current storyline. And no, not an alternate version of her, as this version remembers it happening...

After the first few Batwoman episodes, it's sort of implicit that a fair amount of time is passing between installments. For instance, in one episode, Jacob gets stabbed pretty badly toward the end, and by the start of the next episode he's completely recovered. Also, the last pre-Crisis episode left things in a place where there are no immediate cliffhangers. There are events that will have consequences, of course, but nothing that has to be picked up on the very next day or that can't simmer for a while before having a payoff. So there's room for a significant time jump after that, depending on what they do when the season resumes.

Anyway, episode 5 of Batwoman said the Arkham breakout from Elseworlds had happened 2 weeks earlier. So we know that much, at least.

I really do have to roll my eyes at the meta comments like "ignore him, it's his first crossover." I know these folks are "crossing over" from other Earth's but some of these quips are a little on the nose.

I don't know... It's been established that the Marvel Cinematic Universe and other pop culture from our world exists in the Arrowverse as well. These guys are sci-fi and superhero fans as much as we are. So it stands to reason that some of them would look at the real-life superhero team-ups they somehow keep doing every December and thinking "You know, this is a lot like a crossover story in a comics or movie franchise," and thus would be inclined to refer to them as crossovers. I can certainly see Cisco, Ray, or Nate doing that.

The Spectre is actually one of my all-time favorite comic-book characters, probably because he combines two of my favorite things: superheroes and horror. The morality of his vengeance doesn't bother me because it comes out of the horror genre.

In isolation, perhaps, but it becomes a problem when he's sharing a reality with superheroes whose codes are diametrically opposed to his. By superheroic standards, the Spectre is an even worse villain than the Punisher, because of his infinitely greater power and his sheer sadism in wielding it.

Also, I don't see the appeal of a character who is that all-powerful, who can make anything happen just by willing it. There's no tension there, just self-indulgence. It seems like a boring way to structure a story. Especially when the all-powerful character is supposed to be the protagonist. In a horror story, our sympathies should be with the helpless victims, not the omnipotent force that entraps and kills them.

Anyway, I still wonder if casting Stephen Lobo as Corrigan is some sort of in-joke reference to the fact that Constantine's Corrigan, Emmett Scanlan, ended up playing the character Lobo on Krypton. More likely just a weird coincidence.

 

[Greg Cox]

I really do have to roll my eyes at the meta comments like "ignore him, it's his first crossover." I know these folks are "crossing over" from other Earth's but some of these quips are a little on the nose.

I actually love that stuff. It's cute and funny and takes some of the piss out of the ominous dialogue about fate and destiny and such.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the future article mention Barry fighting some huge battle with Reverse Flash when he disappears in Crisis? Also, we saw that video clip from the future that Barry makes for Nora where he appears to be speaking from a big battle going on in the background. I don't think we've seen that yet. So is that still to come in the crossover, probably in part 5? Or has the timeline changed and that won't happen anymore?

 

[Christopher]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the future article mention Barry fighting some huge battle with Reverse Flash when he disappears in Crisis? Also, we saw that video clip from the future that Barry makes for Nora where he appears to be speaking from a big battle going on in the background. I don't think we've seen that yet. So is that still to come in the crossover, probably in part 5? Or has the timeline changed and that won't happen anymore?

The Crisis was going to be in 2024, but the timeline changes wrought by Nora et al. at the end of The Flash last season altered events so that it came five years earlier and happened differently.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I've never read the comic (and have no interest in it), so I have no idea how the story goes. But I have to say I wasn't too thrilled with the ending. It pretty much guarantees there's going to have to be some sort of rest buttons. I can't begin to express how much I hate reset buttons.

 

[Turtletrekker]

P

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the future article mention Barry fighting some huge battle with Reverse Flash when he disappears in Crisis? Also, we saw that video clip from the future that Barry makes for Nora where he appears to be speaking from a big battle going on in the background. I don't think we've seen that yet. So is that still to come in the crossover, probably in part 5? Or has the timeline changed and that won't happen anymore?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Christopher]

But I have to say I wasn't too thrilled with the ending.

It's not the ending, it's part 3 of 5. The last 2 parts air in January.

It pretty much guarantees there's going to have to be some sort of rest buttons. I can't begin to express how much I hate reset buttons.

Not really... "Reset button" means an excuse to restore everything to the previous status quo as though nothing had changed. While obviously the destruction of all existence will be reversed, the producers will use the opportunity to make major changes in the status quo, whether in the characters' lives or in the continuity of the universe. They did something similar with "Flashpoint" a few years back -- they mostly restored the universe as it had been, but with a few major changes and consequences that drove much of the storytelling that season, not only in The Flash but in the other shows as well.

 

[Alan Roi]

Also, I don't see the appeal of a character who is that all-powerful, who can make anything happen just by willing it. There's no tension there, just self-indulgence. It seems like a boring way to structure a story. Especially when the all-powerful character is supposed to be the protagonist. In a horror story, our sympathies should be with the helpless victims, not the omnipotent force that entraps and kills them.
.

It is the subversion of our expectations of the SH genre that makes characters like Spectre appealing. There is still tension, but its more around what people enjoy about the horror genre and the cognitive dissonance that come from being compelled to sympathize with characters who should ordinarily be antagonists. And there is some freedom to enjoy what punishment the Spectre inflicts because he is somewhat omniscient. You don't have to be concerned about the Spectre meting out his kind of justice. With the Punisher, he's just a guy gunning down people who get in his way. How do we know how many of his victims don't deserve it? Its also telling that there are many cops out there who identify with the Punisher. Not so much the Spectre.

 

[Turtletrekker]

There will be a two issue tie-in comic available exclusively at participating Walmart stores with stories written by Marv Wolfman, the original author of Crisis, and Arrowverse producer Marc Guggenheim. Guggenheim confirms that these stories will be canon.

https://www.newsarama.com/48140-mar...lZl0fSaG_3FrSS2MrRdDwSm_sIlNMO1MWc4Brq9N3ZMNU

 

[Mudd]

I really do have to roll my eyes at the meta comments like "ignore him, it's his first crossover." I know these folks are "crossing over" from other Earth's but some of these quips are a little on the nose.

It was pretty clever of the writers, really, to decide that the characters involved in these events might reasonably settle on the term "crossover" to describe what they're going through.

 

[CorporalClegg]

It's not the ending, it's part 3 of 5. The last 2 parts air in January.

I was talking about the end of the episode, obviously.

Not really... "Reset button" means an excuse to restore everything to the previous status quo as though nothing had changed.

No.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ResetButton

The Reset Button is any means by which previously occurring drastic events are made partially or wholly irrelevant by the end of the story.

There has already been a fair amount of character growth that is inevitably going to be affected in some way - not to mention whatever the characters' reactions are to losing everyone in the subsequent episode.

 

[Scout101]

Using the Flashpoint example, not even much of that mattered after a couple episodes. They played with a couple backstories, but after a minute, didn’t come up again. And nothing so drastic that it sticks with the story, they’re still the same characters we’ve had from day 1. You honestly forget that this isn’t the timeline we started with.

Sorta like Harry Kim on Voyager. After a couple references, did it ever matter again? Not really.

not sure how to have made Flashpoint matter more without changing a character or actor permanently to make us live with the result.