Spoilers Crisis on Infinite Earths Discussion (CW Event Spoiler Thread)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Mark_Nguyen, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let's take this even further. Imagine you're a doctor on Earth 38. You've built a nice life. You have money, a family, all the bells and whistles. Now your planet is gone. All you worked for is gone. You still have your training of course, but I doubt a degree on Earth 38 will fly on Earth 1. How do you get a job as a doctor?

    You are a resident of Earth 1. You are living a normal life. Your Earth 38 doppelganger is a criminal. He commits a crime, leaves your DNA all over the place. Now what?

    Bottom line is that the Earth 38 people may not even be permitted to land.

    You might have to find another planet for them, which I suppose is possible in these circumstances.

    This is true too. I wish they would end it with some major changes. For me, maybe something happens that causes Earth 38 to be irretrievable, so the only answer is to merge Earths 1 and 38. To do that right, you would have to put Earth 1 in the exact same peril, so that the two worlds are co-dependent on surviving. If only one Earth is in danger, no one would have the authority to disrupt and ruin so many lives.

    I would love to see Earth 38 and Earth 1 be a new Earth, with one history.

    This was my issue as well. I have no issue with the Kingdom Come Superman existing, but he should not be the Reeve version. That's a terrible fate for his supporting cast and the Reeve Superman, the favorite of most, shouldn't be forced to suffer that way.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    All the more reason I'm convinced they'll restore Earth-38 somehow. Or if they do merge universes (which I hope they won't), they'll merge people with their doppelgangers so the population doesn't double (although that doesn't account for people without doppelgangers on the other world, like most of the Flash cast, or for all the alien immigrants on Earth-38).


    The point is to serve the storytelling needs of the Arrowverse, not just to copy an older story from a different continuity. Every adaptation they've done from the comics has adjusted the story to suit their own needs, often by changing the outcome. Marvel has done the same thing with its films.

    Indeed, given how comics-savvy today's audiences are, it would be redundant to give them the same ending they already know from the original work. Where's the surprise there? You want to give the audience something it doesn't expect.


    An adaptation can mix and match pieces from many storylines. Look at how Thor: Ragnarok cherrypicked a few pieces from the namesake comics story arc and lumped them together with the much later, completely unconnected Planet Hulk. Or how Batman: The Animated Series' adaptation of Steve Englehart's "The Laughing Fish" swapped out its original ending for the climax of Denny O'Neil's earlier story "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge."


    There will certainly be major consequences. But they don't have to be the exact same consequences as the original story 33 years ago. They'll be consequences that serve the needs of these shows and their characters in the here and now. For one thing, this is leading into the series finale of Arrow. The Arrowverse losing its namesake show is a seismic change in itself. We've also seen Mia taking on the Green Arrow mantle, setting up her spinoff, and meeting Clark & Lois's baby and bringing them back to Earth is setting up their spinoff. We've been told that these events will have a lasting impact on Batwoman and will set Sara's story arc in motion for Legends next season.
     
  3. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm really enjoying this for the cameos and references, but I'm not getting the feels I hoped for. Ollie's death didn't register for exactly the same reason Greg said a few posts up: no way they kill Oliver Queen on SUPERGIRL. It feels like a "Wrath of Khan early Spock death" deception. And now they're toying with the Lazarus Pit. There's very little chance he'll be a soulless killing machine for the rest of the mini series, so he'll come back. Besides, didn't Future Felicity say she was going with the Monitor to reunite with him in her last appearance on Arrow?

    The music is a little over the top and the whole thing so far feels like it's all about the cameos. However, I love certain performances. Ruby Rose is amazing, Brandon Routh brings his A-Game as Superman and Tom Welling, while a little rusty, has charm to spare. I missed him a lot. He looks great! He and Erica Durance really blew away the current Clark and Lois...
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Okay, Arrowverse Wiki explanations for the universe numbers in Part 2:

    Earth-18 (alt-Jonah Hex, Lazarus Pit): For a Western-style Earth from DC Comics.
    Earth-74 (alternate Waverider and Rory): ??
    Earth-75 (Death of Superman homage world): After Superman V. 2 #75, the issue where Superman died.
    Earth-96 (Superman Returns/Kingdom Come universe): Publication date of Kingdom Come.
    Earth-99 (evil Bruce Wayne): Premiere date of Batman Beyond.
    Earth-167 (Smallville): Apparently for Smallville co-creator Alfred Gough's 1967 birth year, and possibly an alternate Earth from a comics story of the same year in which Clark and Lex were best friends (also Clark was Batman and Lex was Superman).
     
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  5. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Good point. In theory, Superman could end up ok on that world, based on the same reasoning he was ok in the comics.

    Plus, they revealed that this Hoschlin already had his battle with Doomsday, which I actually think kind of sucks because it would be epic on the new show.
     
  6. thribs

    thribs Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No Plays Withsquirrels for Terry? That would have been a fun one. That and Keanu Reeves Constataine.
     
  7. Romulan_spy

    Romulan_spy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Lois mentions Zod too. So that is 2 of the big classic Superman fights that have already happened off-screen. Not to mention that we never got to see any of the fights with Lex Luthor either. That is definitely a bummer that we will finally get a Superman show but we missed several of the big epic classic Superman stories.
     
  8. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I suppose, but it still annoys me when they make such a hoopla about a character dying then immediately bring him back (see also: BvS, among many others.) It cheapens the story and robs any other major character death of any real sense of peril. That it's a well worn comic book trope does not in my opinion absolve subsequent writers of holding themselves to a higher standard.

    I mean it's a given that a LOT of the death and destruction we've already seen is likely to be undone in some way or another. So to my way of thinking the least they could do is make actual character deaths matter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  9. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The stuff with the Supermen and Batman was great. I watched Smallville a lot back in the day, and I really liked what they did with their Lois and Clark. I thought having Clark give up his powers to raise a family was a nice way to finish his story.
    Routh was great as his Superman, and the big Superman vs Superman fight was pretty cool.
    Batman-99 was a huge surprised, definitely not what I expected. Kevin Conroy really knocked it out of the park. As soon it became clear that Kate wasn't getting through to him, I realized she was the Paragon, not him. That was an interesting way for Kate to see what being a vigilante could potentially lead to.
    I was a little disappointed the Jonah Hex we saw was an unfriendly alternate universe version, rather than the Legends' friend.
    When Oliver died, it didn't even occur to me that they could use a Lazarus Pit. It'll be interesting to see what they do with him now.
    Them using an alternate Waverider with just Mick on board, was an interesting choice.
    I agree with what other people have said, it does look like they're setting up the Book of Destiny as the way to restore the destroyed universes.
     
  10. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lex can always be used, especially now. Hopefully Cryer will be a regular on the show, or at least recurring. Lex is the kind of villain you can bring back constantly with new schemes. And honestly, there's nothing that wouldn't be fair game other than the epic battle with Doomsday.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I appreciated that Lois said in Part 1 that Superman captured Zod, retconning the unfortunate bit a few years back where Winn casually dropped the bombshell that he'd killed Zod. Now we can assume Winn just misremembered.


    Maybe that's why they retconned Zod's defeat to a non-fatal one. And why they gave Lex such tunnel vision that he can't realize his Superman is Clark Kent too. That suggests they have future plans for him.



    Maybe that's because LoT already shot its season before this, so they had to write it around what happens there, and somehow that means avoiding the real Waverider and crew. Although of course they still need to use their standing sets as much as possible to save money, so Earth-16 Oliver has the same bunker as ours, the opening scenes in Part 2 were in STAR Labs, etc. The crossovers always revolve heavily around the standing sets. Although I gather we will be seeing the "Hall of Justice" hangar from Invasion! again.
     
  12. Gryffindorian

    Gryffindorian Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with you on what's become of Tom Welling Superman.

    As far as the Donnerverse goes, I thought it had been established that Superman Returns was part of the continuity. It was sort of a soft reboot, based on what I had read from the movie's illustrated guide book. If there was one indication, it would be John Williams' musical score.

    I would have preferred that they had kept Donnerverse separate from Kingdom Come.
     
  13. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Commodore Commodore

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    So have we nerds figured out about Earth-75's Superman? Played by any particular actor? That was E-1 Lois, but it didn't really look like E-1 Superman... And the suit, while without trunks, didn't have E-1's cape or shield... I get the whole pose was meant to evoke the final frame of Superman V.2 #75, but the finer details are interesting to me...

    Mark
     
  14. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    1975.



    Live TV.
     
  16. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    I think I realized what my issue was with last night's episode, and why I don't feel as enthusiastic about it as others. Granted, a lot of it is just not being as invested as the fans I guess, but a lot of this really has to do with my confusion as to what is happening in relation to what we learned on Flash and Arrow going into this crossover.

    I think my issue with the episodes so far is having watched Flash this season and seeing the gravity of what Crisis is, the episodes aren't living up to that kind of hype yet. Most of the comments are about these cameos or whatever, but what about Flash dying in crisis, or Oliver having to be tested by the monitor only to be killed off in the first episode. Also, the red sky appeared over Central City and Lian Yu going into Crisis yet Earth 1 is still ok? Also, I expected the final scene that aired on all the shows last week with Nash to have a much bigger impact.

    I know there are 3 episodes left but tonight we will be left with a cliffhanger and in a month I probably will forget everything that happened this week. I guess maybe the urgency could be there.

    Maybe reading this thread might help clear up some of those confusions, but a lot of it is really just seeing a lot of the cameos from various earths but wishing more was actually done with these arrowverse characters themselves I think.
     
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  17. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was greatly amused by Tulloch's Lois having the immediate and obvious hots for every multiversal version of Clark she encountered. (Bonus points for Kara's un-cousinly reaction to Routh-Supes.)
     
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  18. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    I wonder which version of the Batmobile was under the drop cloth in his Batcave.

    To me it had the tail fine and jet intake of the Burton or maybe the Schumacher era though I'm not familiar with all the Batmobile depections over the years (and the body wasn't squared off enough for the TAS version which also had to fins).
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I'd say, rather, that the approximate events of Superman: The Movie and Superman II are part of its continuity, but that doesn't mean it's reciprocally part of the continuity of the Christopher Reeve movie series -- which overtly took place 20-odd years earlier (sorry, the "timeless" thing doesn't cut it since it was presented as very much a contemporary piece) and included three movies (counting Supergirl) that SR doesn't acknowledge. They're two separate continuities that have two movies' worth of events approximately in common -- much like every Superman continuity shares events like the destruction of Krypton and Kal-El being found by the Kents. (Or like how there are seven distinct Godzilla film continuities that all include the 1954 film but otherwise contradict each other massively.)

    That's the thing about fictional continuity -- since it's all made up anyway, one work can claim another as being in its continuity (at least after a fashion) but that doesn't mean the reverse will be true. Look at all the cases where an animated TV series spinoff presented itself as a direct sequel to a movie, only to be ignored by the movie's own sequels (e.g. The Real Ghostbusters, Men in Black, the MTV Spider-Man, etc.). Two things can be in continuity and out of continuity with each other at the same time.

    After all, the continuity of fictional works is as imaginary as everything else about them. It's not an objectively real thing, it's just another storytelling device like everything else, and that makes it just as mutable and subject to the whims of storytellers.


    Which was also used by the 1988 Superman animated series. And Danny Elfman's Batman theme has been used in at least four different continuities -- the Burton movies, B:TAS, the Justice League feature, and now here in the Earth-99 scenes.


    Why? Like I said, SR was 13 years ago. A lot could've happened in that universe in the meantime. Both Earth-96 and Earth-99 drew elements from the Kingdom Come versions of Superman and Batman, but neither was a direct adaptation of the work as a whole, just homaging certain aspects of it.


    The quantum towers are supposed to be holding the antimatter wave at bay on key Earths. Presumably Earth-1 is one of those.


    I gather it was the '89 version.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Did they confirm that Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, are in separate universes from Batman and Batman Returns? If the regular shows didn't, it's what Kevin Smith believes from what he said in the quiz during the first after show.

    He thinks that Arnie's Mr Freeze is from Earth 97, not Earth 89.