Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Mark_Nguyen, Dec 9, 2019.
Which headline? The “I Spent the Night with Superman” one?
I just assume the Donnerverse Superman films are not in any specific time period ala Gotham. It is just easier that way. And explains the 1938-era farm, 1970's era city of the original films and 2006 level computer tech in Returns.
One of the names on the memorial plaques in Clark’s office was Lacy Warfield. From Superman 4. It’s fuzzy in the wide shot of Lois. But it’s readable. Above Perry, Jimmy, and Lois.
For someone who is not as invested in this as various other people, I found that episode kind of slow. You have this crisis in which the entire multi-verse is being destroyed, and everyone is off on their own adventures. I did like the Welling Superman scene (Never saw Smallville, and I also liked seeing Routh's Superman again. Other than that, I found last night more gripping.
Pretty silly how Lex was knocked out. He could have teleported Iris and Lois to an active volcano but he allows them to look out the window. Lois then proceeds to sneak up behind lex and knock him unconscious
Also I haven’t really invested much into supergirl the series but tonight was the first time I’ve seen how the graphics look.
It’s barely better than 90s Lois and Clark graphics. Wow.
Plot convenience. If Lex was so invested in killing all Supermen, he would be aware of the possibility of his friends...standing next to him...trying to stop him, but he had to be temporarily stupid to one--give Lois and Iris something to do while the Supermen fought and 2) concoct some way to for Lex to be captured.
If by graphics you mean the special effects, yes, they are often terrible and very video-gamey. Early 2000s video gamey.
I think t only appeared in the Routh world.
I'm liking this crossover so far, especially with the nods to various DC incarnations in film and on TV.
The opening of the first episode was geektastic, especially Burt Ward's cameo and the Bruce Timm Batman Animated Series theme. Since I don't have a DCU subscription, I was oblivious to the reference to Titans of Earth 9.
The shadow demons reminded me of Dementors from Harry Potter, but they were too darn generic as disposable villains that didn't really pose much of a threat.
Episode 2: Hard to believe Tom Welling's Superman gave up his powers, but at least he and Lois lived a happy life together in Smallville.
I didn't read Kingdom Come, so Kevin Conroy's Batman on Earth 96 went over my head. It would've been trippy to get a glimpse of him as an older version of Timmverse Batman instead.
I agree that despite the decades-long gap, Brandon Routh's Clark Kent was the Donnerverse Superman, i.e., formerly portrayed by Christopher Reeve.
The Death of Superman, torn cape was recognizable.
For this crossover to be really, really, really epic, it would have to contain elements from Gotham, Injustice: Gods Among Us the video game, and the present-day DC Cinematic Universe.
The different Earths, from what I've observed, are different realities (Brandon Routh vs. Tyler Hoechlin Superman) and divergent timelines (like Earth-X, where the Nazis rule). For instance, Earth-A might have neither Clark Kent nor Superman, like ours. Earth-B could have a Clark Kent only, but no Superman. Earth-C might have a Sodam Yat Daxamite Superman, but Clark might not exist. On Earth-D, Superman and Clark could both exist but are two different persons. Earth-E Superman might look like Henry Cavill.
^ I'm pretty sure Conroy's Batman was from Earth-99, not Earth-96 (AKA the "Donner/Singerverse").
You're right. I got mixed up with all the numbering. So it appears they fused Kingdom Come with Donnerverse.
Also, I meant to put "Donner/Singerverse"; Abrams has been on my mind tonight because of Star Wars.
The camera panned across three headlines in Welling Clark's house to the window, showing him chopping wood. The headlines were: "Caped Wonder Stuns City"; "I Spend the Night with Superman"; and (as generic as you can get) "Superman Saves the Day".
In Routh Clark's office, we saw the headline about the "reject from Gotham" having gassed the Daily Planet.
Batman of the future? I call bullsh1t. That’s Terry. I know my lore.
I liked the Smallville scene but I hope that isn’t it for him. Sure it’s a nice ending for the character but I felt like they could have done more. Maybe for Infinite Crisis he comes back.
The other Superman was awesome though. Strange that they went with Earth-96 and not Earth-78, representing Kingdom Come instead of the movie which threw me for a second; thinking this wasn’t the same Superman, but then he referencesSuperman III and his son. I hope they do a lot with him. This is THE Superman after all.
I hope the final 3 paradigms aren’t all Earth-1 heroes. I hope there is a surprise in there somewhere. Maybe Ryan Renoylds Green Lantern is will.
Some thoughts. I liked Part 2 better than part 1, but I feel that their efforts to be so inclusive led them to make some choices that are harder because of the universes they are playing in.
For example--Smallville. I have absolutely no problem with an Earth where Superman gives up his powers to have a family. However, I do have an issue with SMALLVILLE Superman doing that. Why? Because we spent 10 years watching Clark's journey to become Superman, and it makes absolutely zero sense that he would go through all that only to give it up. We learned the lesson in Superman II that Clark can't afford to be that selfish, and one of the things that makes Superman so special is that he knows that his abilities give him a chance to help so many people. The world will always need him so to have him give it all up is so out of character.
And this version of Clark should realize this lesson, as his intro to the world had him take on APOKOLIPS.
Even with other heroes to help, Clark is a leader, and not the type of person to let someone else put things on the line when he can do the same and better.
That's not Superman. Plus, he really took a whole nonchalant attitude toward the fact that his world and family are in danger. Even ignoring the COIE, Clark giving up his powers would PUT his family in danger as it is inevitable that someone would find out who he was and take revenge.
However, if we see Welling again, I think we have a great story. His life paralleled the Reeve Superman in many ways. Reeve's Superman also tried to give it all up for a life with Lois, but immediately was shown that he couldn't. Superman is too good of a person to sit back and give up his ability to help so many people. Had Superman not been able to get his powers back in Superman II, Clark couldn't have lived with himself as Zod ruled Earth.
As a finale for Smallville, Clark giving up his powers is awful. Great to see him happy, but it's very un-Superman like. As a STORY for Smallville, that's different. I wish they could have had Welling realize this situation and convince him to try to get his abilities back. Plus, I wish he could have spent more time with Hoschlin's version.
A similar issue could be said about Routh's Superman.
The intent is clearly to have Routh be the Reeve version and I get that to an extent. They even did a subtle thing that I loved, which was have his heat vision be red.
But they have a similar issue that I had with Smallville. I have absolutely no issue with Kingdom Come Superman existing. But to have him be the REEVE version is a terrible situation for the audience in my opinion.
Do we really want Christopher Reeve's version to go through all that?
But is this really the REEVE version? Or the Routh version? It's a little more acceptable if you separate Reeve and Routh, even if the movie didn't specifically do that. If you think about it, Reeve and Routh were very different. Reeve's version was much stronger than Routh's mentally.
Reeve's version was well educated on Krypton and ESPECIALLY after the events of Superman II, would NEVER leave Earth for a period of years, and even if he did, he would not be a chicken and not say goodbye to Lois.
Plus, we know for a fact that if the Joker set off a bomb in the Daily Planet killing everyone Clark cared about, Reeve would simply spin around the Earth and save everyone. There is no reason to believe Reeve wouldn't do that.
Routh's version was the stalker deadbeat dad. His version of Perry White was a different race. His supporting cast was also quite different.
Plus, if you factor in the real world, they marketed the Routh version has a sequel to Superman II, but ignored III and IV.
That would imply a completely different tangent.
It's a multiverse, so it could be a different Earth.
In Superman III and Superman IV, Reeve never left Earth. Clearly more than 9 months passed since Zod. So he couldn't have got Lois pregnant. Plus, in the Routh version, if it followed Superman II, then Lois would have been pregnant with no memory of how she got that way.
Anyway, it works a little better if Routh's version and Reeve's version come from similar Earths but not the same Earth.
I would just find it harder if the REEVE Supreman lost Lois that way, and again, he would never allow it.
The only issue is the line about Superman fighting himself, but in the Routh version, if Superman III never happened, perhaps a similar incident happened after the events of Superman Returns.
So basically, in both the Smallville and Donner situations, the Supermen we met were fine, but they didn't work so well as actually sequels to THOSE characters that we followed.
Regarding BATMAN--here's where they got it right. Earths are Earths. I have no problem with Bruce turning rotten on an Earth. Here, we have an Earth with no continuity or past. So anything goes.
This version of Bruce isn't a good version. The version of the main Arrowverse has to be better. Hopefully younger as well. I'd like to see someone who will become the man that trains Terry McGuiness. Of course, that would be many years in the future, and would only work in a show set in the far future.
Back to Routh, I feel there is debate as to whether Routh is the Donner Superman, the Superman Returns version (assuming he's different) or a third version, all from similar but not identical Earths.
But either way, I want to see more of him and I hope they give him a meatier role in the next few episodes.
Seems clear to me that Black Lightning is one of the remaining three Paragons. As lead of their own shows, Ollie and Barry round out the set, Monitor be damned.
It doesn't surprise me one iota that Welling Clark would give up his powers. He spent all that time avoiding becoming Superman, it makes perfect sense that he'd take an out the first chance he got.
There was an episode where Clark encountered Jonathan Kent in the afterlife, and Jonathan implied that he saw the future and talked about all the great things Clark did. Clark may not have been the perfect Superman, but he was still Superman, driven by a desire to do good for people, and the finale of Smallville implied he had a strong career as the Man of Steel and grew into it. I honestly don't feel giving it up makes sense--at least not permanently.
It probably was what the writers did to get Tom Welling in there--not unlike a certain fan film in Star Trek having to kill a major character to get the actor that portrayed him to reprise his role, even though that was not possible in canon.
But I am enjoying multiple versions of Superman and certainly hope that this is explored on the new show.
I liked Part 2 of Crisis a lot better than Part 1. The focus on recruiting new heroes led to some effective subplots. The meeting of the Supermen was well-done, and their battle was suitably epic. Routh was good in the role, getting to play a wider range of emotions and moods in these few minutes than in the entirety of Superman Returns (where every actor seemed to be instructed to underplay everything as much as possible).
And the sequence with Conroy's Batman was terrific. It was so perfect that his introduction was through that iconic voice first. I've seen a couple of people express surprise that they went so dark with his version, but I thought that was great, because it let Conroy cut loose as an actor, use that Shakespearean training he always brought to the role. His DCAU Batman was one of the more dark and tragic portrayals of the character in mass media, and a lot of his most memorable villains were sympathetic figures who crossed a line and never came back. So it's appropriate that his version of Batman here was one whose dark side was amplified to the extreme.
I'm not surprised that Smallville's Clark gave up his powers. It's an amusing meta-commentary on Welling's resistance to donning the cape, but it also works as a valid tribute, because his version was always more about being farmboy Clark Kent, so this was true to what his show was, rather than what we might've wished it could become. And it tied into the overall theme of Superman maturing and having a family. Earth-38 Superman got to have a family with Lois by going to Argo where he temporarily gave up his powers. Smallville Superman didn't have that option, so he chose to give up his powers more permanently in order to have "the girls" with his Lois. (And why not? His world had a ton of other superheroes predating him, so it's not like he was the only guy who could do the job.) And even though Earth-96 Superman lost his Lois and his whole Daily Planet family to the Joker's attack, he still has his son to be proud of.
As for the rest, I'm not surprised that they're already talking about ways to undo the losses of Part 1. They've brought Oliver's body back to life, if not yet his soul, and Kara is talking about using the Book of Destiny to restore Earth-38 and the others. I think it's a safe bet at this point that at least some of the worlds will be restored, though probably with some changes.
Meanwhile, Black Lightning's episode was a more direct Crisis tie-in than I thought. It was largely a "red sky crossover" as I expected it to be, peripherally affected by the larger Crisis without the characters being directly in the loop, but it ended up tying in much more directly. And of course the eradication of BL's Earth at the end proves that the destruction is reversible, since naturally that show isn't ending.
I just wish they hadn't labeled the Earths of the alternate Jennifers as "Earth 1" and "Earth 2," because they clearly weren't the same as the mainstream Earth-1 and Earth-2. I mean, obviously in the latter case, since Earth-2 was destroyed weeks ago. But the "Gen: Earth 1" portrayed here can't be the Earth-1 we know. It's an Earth where Black Lightning existed as a meta decades before the first metas were publicly known on Earth-1, and it's an Earth where there's an oppressive "High Council" apparently running things in the US.
Judging from the progress bar on the online stream, it had the same number of commercials as usual. It's a common practice these days to have a long opening segment, maybe 10-12 minutes, and then pack 4-5 commercial breaks into the rest of the hour, so that the later acts are often quite short.
For all the conceit of this being an overarching multiverse, that's just a story device in these specific shows, one that DC and Warner Bros. as a whole are under no obligation to acknowledge in any other work of fiction. Even if the Arrowverse explicitly said "The '89 Batman is permanently gone," that would not in any way prevent WB from telling another story set in the '89 Batman's world.
Except that Superman Returns was always intended to be a "loose" sequel to the first two films, not a literal, direct sequel. Singer took their broad strokes as backstory and interpreted them in his own way. This was a different Superman with a backstory closely resembling the events of the Richard Donner films.
And there's no reason that shouldn't be "easy" to accept. After all, every alternate version of Superman has some of the same events occurring at different times -- Krypton exploding, Jor-El sending his infant son to Earth, Clark getting a job at the Planet and meeting Lois, etc. So there's no reason they couldn't have more specific parallels too.
Besides, treating SR as a direct sequel to Superman II requires ignoring Superman III -- and Routh-Superman said here "This is the second time I went nuts and fought myself," so clearly something like Superman III happened in his version of reality. His past is similar to the Reeve films, but not identical.
Also Angela Chen, the Superman: The Animated Series counterpart of Cat Grant.
Welling giving up his power like that is completely antithetical to his entire character arc. The four cornerstone episodes of the whole series show him losing his power - either literally or in a figurative abstract - and fighting to get it back. The finale even dangles he lure of a life of normalcy with Lois in the form of Gold K wedding rings. He had his Superman II - several of them.
In fact, by the end, you could argue Welling had a greater grasp and understanding (and thus respect and appreciation) for his power than any other on-screen version of the character because he had to fight so hard to "earn" it. Instead of just Hop, Skip, Jump "Wee! I'm flying!"
The main conceit of the show - as so neatly hammered home in the finale - is that he never had to "become" Superman in the first place. He always was. Flights and tights don't make a hero.
Besides, Lois would never let him do it anyway.
The plagues also included Ron Troupe, who was introduced in the comics in the '90s.
I just take the Routh Superman as a broad stroke who's supposed to represent the Superman Returns version and the Reeve films version (now with elements of Kingdom Come mixed in), without getting nitpicky about how that works continuity-wise.
Separate names with a comma.