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Spoilers Crisis on Infinite Earths Discussion (CW Event Spoiler Thread)

Kirk Prime said:
My issue isn't so much a team of heroes, but everyone who knows the hero, knows the identity, which defeats the purpose of the identity.
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It was literally a recent major plot point in Supergirl than Lena was surprised to learn that Kara is Supergirl. Sure, Lena knows now, after many seasons who Supergirl is, but nothing was "defeated" by the revelation. On the contrary, the revelation drove the story of Lena's belief that Kara had betrayed her, which has heightened the drama considerably.
 
Cult Classic said:
It was literally a recent major plot point in Supergirl than Lena was surprised to learn that Kara is Supergirl. Sure, Lena knows now, after many seasons who Supergirl is, but nothing was "defeated" by the revelation. On the contrary, the revelation drove the story of Lena's belief that Kara had betrayed her, which has heightened the drama considerably.
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Which is a weak plot point. Lena's reaction is to turn purely evil and try to take over the world's thoughts. And the main characters are apologizing to the villain which shows the sheer lack of morality of the writers, who don't understand that Lena actually IS a villain.

Of course, had Kara done a better job of NOT TELLING EVERYONE IN HER LIFE who she is, the whole thing is avoided.

Lena's plans and actions are the drama of the show right now, but the identity part really doesn't tie into it. It's an excuse for her tension with Kara no doubt, but they could have simply driven them apart by having Kara disagree with mind raping people.
 
The Arrowverse formula's handling of secret IDs is getting pretty ridiculous, at least judging by The Flash, which I just stopped watching partway into this season. (I'm just tuning in for the crossover event at this point.) It's a bit much when anyone who dates a member of the team is entitled to know Barry's secret.
 
Abbey Chrimble said:
The Arrowverse formula's handling of secret IDs is getting pretty ridiculous, at least judging by The Flash, which I just stopped watching partway into this season. (I'm just tuning in for the crossover event at this point.) It's a bit much when anyone who dates a member of the team is entitled to know Barry's secret.
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I sometimes wonder if the change from older superhero shows where nobody but one or two people knew the hero's identity to newer ones where almost everyone knows is a reflection of the age of cell phones and the Internet. Everyone is connected to social networks now, so we know more about each other and have fewer secrets, and that reflects how we approach the stories we tell.

Although of course it's partly due to modern serialized storytelling. That demands changes in the status quo and developments in core relationships, and having friends/family discover a hero's identity provides such a development while also enabling further developments as the supporting character is brought more directly into the hero's core storylines.

Anyway, it's because of that last bit that I don't mind the modern practice. It's often harder to do much with a character who doesn't know the hero's identity. Often a character doesn't really come into their own until they do discover the truth and become more central to the storylines. Iris West was a wasted character in season 1 of The Flash, but once she was in on the secret, she became far more integral. And personally I think Spider-Man's Aunt May was never a better character than during the period in the early 2000s that she learned Peter Parker's secret identity and became an invaluable confidante and supporter of his superheroic efforts.

Granted, I'm not sure Supergirl's Lena Luthor is a better character for being in on the secret now; if anything, she's kind of become less interesting than before. Though that's largely because of how long they kept her in the dark, so that when she finally found out, she felt betrayed and embittered.

Really, that's another reason I don't like the secret-identity trope. Constantly lying to your best friends, family, romantic partner, etc. is a jerky thing to do. And the excuse for it is lame -- "I hide the truth from you so my enemies won't target you." What difference does that make? Superheroes' best friends constantly get attacked/kidnapped by bad guys anyway. If a bad guy just thought they might know the secret, they'd still get tortured whether they knew or not. Keeping the secret is only about the heroes protecting themselves, not their loved ones. If their loved ones knew they were connected to a superhero, that would make them more aware of potential danger and better able to protect themselves. So it's a hypocritical trope. Keeping your identity secret from the general public is one thing, but the people close to you deserve to know.
 
Season 1 Iris was handled poorly in one way, because she was Barry's love interest and became the only member of the main cast who wasn't in the loop (and for very contrived reasons). But it's stretching things too far in the other direction that anyone who dates Cisco has to be let in on Barry's secret.
 
Abbey Chrimble said:
Season 1 Iris was handled poorly in one way, because she was Barry's love interest and became the only member of the main cast who wasn't in the loop (and for very contrived reasons). But it's stretching things too far in the other direction that anyone who dates Cisco has to be let in on Barry's secret.
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I don't agree. I think we've seen Team Flash go through this question enough times and come to the decision that it's better to be open. Not just romantically -- there was the time when Barry chose to reveal his identity to the metas he was trying to protect from the Thinker, in order to win their trust. So it's in keeping with the overall ethos of Team Flash that they confide these things pretty easily.

I did have a bit of an issue, though, with how easily Batwoman revealed her identity to everyone at the DEO in Part 1. Confiding in Kara, Oliver, or Barry is one thing, but a room full of strangers? Even with Kara's blessing, that's a bit much.

Also, I'm so tired of the modern practice (which I think started with Tim Burton's Batman) of surrounding cowled superheroes' eyes with black (or other color) makeup that magically disappears when they take their cowls off. What is so horrible about showing the skin around their eyes?
 
ANyone want to talk about the goodies revealed in the Aftermath show? I think this latest one was a lot better than the first one, though the "professional fan", Dani, didn't seem to contribute much, at least in my opinion.
 
Cap’n Claus said:
.As somebody who started out watching most of the CW superhero shows, I’m down to only Flash and Arrow at this point.
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I absolutely loathe the characters on Supergirl (f’n Brainy...he comes off like a Joseph Gordon Levitt on 3rd Rock imitation)
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Sort of apt comparison.

Regarding the rest of that series characters, its largely copy+paste with many of the other Berlanti shows, only Supergirl's characters have become 60-80% soapboxes for the showrunners...except James Olsen, who was just a largely marginalized, very insulting token so the showrunners could crow about how diverse the show was, instead of actually knowing/exploring the unique way in which this James would operate in that world. James' life and identity meant nothing to the showrunners (frankly, they knew nothing about it), and his characteriation was such thin, human wallpaper to the degree that few cared about his departure from the series.

I am completely bored with Legends, Black Lightning lost me early on, and I am pretty unfamiliar with the rest of the side characters (although I adore Ruby Rose as Kate Kane, so I may give Batwoman another go). If fFlash doesn’t get a radical refocus because of Crisis, I’m done with that series. The last two seasons have been pretty uninvolving to me - actually Bloodwork was awful.
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Black Lightning and Batwoman are the only true gems of the DC/CW series. The quality of production (scripts, performances) far outshine the others, which is no shock considering how different they are in concept and voice.

There’s a dull sameness to these shows, especially Arrow/Supergirl/Flash. The same template “hero and the team of archetypes.”
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Exactly.
 
Kirk Prime said:
Oliver went public.
Why aren't evil people going around killing anyone who Oliver is friends with?
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Solid point. For an example of how villains should act once they learn the hero's ID, look no further than The Amazing Spider-Man comics, where Spider-Man adversaries learned his civilian identity, and it was not long before people close to Parker either died (the original Green Goblin murdering Gwen Stacy), or were nearly killed by villains targeting him, with the friends being an added bonus (Mary Jane barely survived the blast from an explosive planted by Harry Osborn), etc.

The only people that should know Superman is Clark are other heroes that we know are impeccable, and Lois. I think that only Alex should know about Kara, not all her coworkers.
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James knew Clark was Superman, but then again, they're supposed to be best friends, so Olson knowing his secret made sense...but the show paid little more than lip service--instead of actual screen time--showing how close they're supposed to be.
 
Christopher said:
I sometimes wonder if the change from older superhero shows where nobody but one or two people knew the hero's identity to newer ones where almost everyone knows is a reflection of the age of cell phones and the Internet. Everyone is connected to social networks now, so we know more about each other and have fewer secrets, and that reflects how we approach the stories we tell.

Although of course it's partly due to modern serialized storytelling. That demands changes in the status quo and developments in core relationships, and having friends/family discover a hero's identity provides such a development while also enabling further developments as the supporting character is brought more directly into the hero's core storylines.

Anyway, it's because of that last bit that I don't mind the modern practice. It's often harder to do much with a character who doesn't know the hero's identity. Often a character doesn't really come into their own until they do discover the truth and become more central to the storylines. Iris West was a wasted character in season 1 of The Flash, but once she was in on the secret, she became far more integral. And personally I think Spider-Man's Aunt May was never a better character than during the period in the early 2000s that she learned Peter Parker's secret identity and became an invaluable confidante and supporter of his superheroic efforts.

Granted, I'm not sure Supergirl's Lena Luthor is a better character for being in on the secret now; if anything, she's kind of become less interesting than before. Though that's largely because of how long they kept her in the dark, so that when she finally found out, she felt betrayed and embittered.

Really, that's another reason I don't like the secret-identity trope. Constantly lying to your best friends, family, romantic partner, etc. is a jerky thing to do. And the excuse for it is lame -- "I hide the truth from you so my enemies won't target you." What difference does that make? Superheroes' best friends constantly get attacked/kidnapped by bad guys anyway. If a bad guy just thought they might know the secret, they'd still get tortured whether they knew or not. Keeping the secret is only about the heroes protecting themselves, not their loved ones. If their loved ones knew they were connected to a superhero, that would make them more aware of potential danger and better able to protect themselves. So it's a hypocritical trope. Keeping your identity secret from the general public is one thing, but the people close to you deserve to know.
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I agree with a lot of this. The single best story decision the early DCEU made was to abandon the traditional "triangle for two," and have Lois in on Clark's secret from the get-go. Secret identity shenanigans are rarely very interesting, but making Clark and Lois partners and confidantes from the outset yielded enormous character dividends.
 
I've never liked the whole secret identity thing, it just leads to to many annoying situations of the hero having to try to lie their way out of something. I much prefer the people close to the hero know who he is. I do agree that they do seem to go a little overboard in that regard in The Flash. I'd be at least a bit more hesitant to tell Cisco's girlfriend than they were.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
James knew Clark was Superman, but then again, they're supposed to be best friends, so Olson knowing his secret made sense...but the show paid little more than lip service--instead of actual screen time--showing how close they're supposed to be.
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Yeah, but traditionally, Clark never told Jimmy. In fact, it was something of a comfort to Clark to know that Jimmy was both Clark's and Superman's friend, separately.

I do think that the identity is very important, and yes, the reasoning behind it is sound. It's to protect the people the hero cares about, and even if they know, they could be tortured as well.

Supergirl, for all its flaws, had an interesting situation last season with Alex. She had to give up her memories of Supergirl to protect Kara, which ironically is the reverse of why identities exist. But had Alex never known, they wouldn't have had to jump through hoops. Granted, being her sister made Alex someone who should know, but the logic behind keeping the circle small is important.

Great point in the last few posts about how just dating a friend of Barry entitles them to know Barry's identity. How could Cisco tell his girlfriend that?
 
Like I said in my other post, that is taking it to far for me. It really should just be the inner circle, family and close friends, not everybody who meets them.
 
Abbey Chrimble said:
Well, with the DEO crowd she had the additional buffer that they were from a different universe.
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At that point, did Kate even know that? I don't get the sense that Harbinger gave her a detailed briefing before spiriting her away.


JD said:
I've never liked the whole secret identity thing, it just leads to to many annoying situations of the hero having to try to lie their way out of something. I much prefer the people close to the hero know who he is.
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Yeah. I'm so sick of stories about protagonists lying to their friends and colleagues. Sure, there's suspense and tension built into stories about keeping secrets, but when it becomes a constant element, it kind of works against the characters being heroic. And with family members, it can feel tantamount to gaslighting.


I do agree that they do seem to go a little overboard in that regard in The Flash. I'd be at least a bit more hesitant to tell Cisco's girlfriend than they were.
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To be fair, I think there was a bit of a gap between when Cisco told her his identity and when we saw her incorporated into the STAR Labs support team, so there could've been some gradual building of trust happening off-camera before she got to that stage.

Although it was definitely a jerk move for Nash Wells to casually reveal the Flash's secret identity to Allegra when they met. That's not a choice you get to make on someone else's behalf.
 
Kevin Feige has stated that Tony Stark declaring "I am Iron Man" in his first movie (after teasing the ridiculous "bodyguard" thing) was their way of doing away with the secret identity trope, and they've largely stuck to that. In Peter Parker's first movie, they let Peter's best friend and Aunt May in the loop, and they revealed his identity to the world in the second.

The only secret ID still existing in the MCU is Matt Murdock, and Feige was not involved in his show.
 
Turtletrekker said:
Kevin Feige has stated that Tony Stark declaring "I am Iron Man" in his first movie (after teasing the ridiculous "bodyguard" thing) was their way of doing away with the secret identity trope, and they've largely stuck to that.
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Yeah, that reveal was a great decision, and perfectly in keeping with Stark's impulsive and cocksure character.
 
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