Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comments?

[Shamrock Holmes]

Ok, clearly I'm missing something. Is it the idea of the Flight/Tactical Specialist that you don't like or is it the idea of backups being drawn from outside the specialist rating?

If a) in TOS, Helm, Nav and Weps functions were accessable from the same console, and in ENT and TNG+ Helm and Nav are combined) - as I've based the notion there on existing ST systems, and that of the six modern naval forces that I can find decent info on (USN, USCG, RCN, RN, RAN & RNZN), apart from in the USN the "Bo'sun" includes both seamanship (BM) and navigation (QM) functions and often requires at least the ability to control the guns (GM, although the torpedoes/missiles and the engineering are usually left to dedicated ratings) and is referred to as either Seaman (Combat) Specialist or BM, rarely as QM in the US Navy sense. The closest it outside the USN is as the title for the seaman/BM acting as helmsman (and called them "Helmsman" or "CONN" makes a lot more sense to me) or slightly more similarly as the title of the watch supervisor of the brow when the ship is in port. Another reason to avoid Quarter Master as the name for your "pilot" rating is that in French "Quarter Master" (both French and Belgian navies) is the rank given to Able Seaman and Leading Seaman (roughly equivalent to the USN ratings CN (striker) and PO3) regardless of trade, and this might cause confusion whereas BM is unamiguous?

If b) Well, cross-training for other things (medic, damage control, security watch) are a thing even in the USN, and it seems logical that small to medium density crews would favour having personnel for "secondary roles" be able to backstop the primary functions even if they aren't rota'd into them as their regular job? On the other hand, larger ships like the Enterprises capable of accommodating thousands of crew are unlikely to require this level of "cross-rated" redundancy and like with Security on modern carriers are likely to trend towards using only the experts in the role.

 

[Sgt_G]

I believe we were talking about two different things. I was replying to your examples, all but one of which were officers, and my thoughts on how their training / career path differs from enlisted.

Okay, so in TOS, you had Sulu at Helm and Chekov at Nav. Chekov's job was well defined (figure out where we are and how to get to where we want to be). Sulu's job, however, was less well defined on-screen. He steers the ship and sets its speed. But on-screen, they also had him raising the shields and firing the weapons, which seems a little overtasking in the heat of combat, and at times monitoring what else goes on inside the ship. He could tell when someone used the transporter or launched a shuttle craft.

Sudden thought: Save for one episode (Balance of Terror), they never showed anyone controlling the weapons except for Sulu. I'm not sure I like that idea. I don't want one person on the bridge in control of the weapons but nor do I want the phaser / photon crew to have the ability to fire them either. I think what I'll do in my stories is make it such that the weapon's crew arms & aims the weapon and presses the "fire" button once it's ready, but it doesn't actually fire until a second person on the bridge (or in Aux Con or in the main weapons control room) also presses a FIRE button. Two-man rule for safety.

As to the Quartermaster vs. Boatswain's Mate thing, you make some valid points. One could also make a case to merge not QM and BM but rather QM and communications and sensors into one Bridge Operations Specialist role. I still want to keep them separate (due to story plots in my head), but I'm not married to the idea. Actually, I'm married to a Yeoman.

 

[Pauln6]

Sulu's job, however, was less well defined on-screen. He steers the ship and sets its speed. But on-screen, they also had him raising the shields and firing the weapons, which seems a little overtasking in the heat of combat, and at times monitoring what else goes on inside the ship. He could tell when someone used the transporter or launched a shuttle craft.

Yeah I agree, although I think Chekov might have fired weapons in one episode when Takei wasn't around to save giving an extra any lines and often (but not always) the navigator dealt with shields. The navigator isn't much use during a fight so it would make more sense to have them working the weapons as standard I suppose, although Chekov did often wander off to use the sensor station quite a bit so maybe that's not a good idea either.

The TMP era arrangement with a weapons station and internal security station makes a bit more sense but even in TWoK, Sulu was still firing phasers right up until Chekov showed up. So what you see on screen and common sense may not be related on this point. They just wanted the guys at the front to be in on the action essentially.

 

[Longinus]

I prefer TNG setup of the bridge stations. Seemed to make more sense.

 

[Pauln6]

I prefer TNG setup of the bridge stations. Seemed to make more sense.

Hmmm - I'm not so sure. The tactical station seems to me to suffer from the same problem as TOS helm. I don't think I'd want the same guy to be allocating shield power while also arming torpedoes, aiming phasers, internal security, and monitoring comms. The Ops station is probably combining one of the TMP engineering stations, the science station, and some elements of internal security. It's a mish mash.

I think that the navigator, who presumably deals with the navigational deflector anyway, dealing with shields seems fine to me. The later allocation of duty stations seems to be to have been motivated by allocation of actors rather than common sense. I stand by TMP to the end!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I believe we were talking about two different things. I was replying to your examples, all but one of which were officers, and my thoughts on how their training / career path differs from enlisted.

Fair point, should probably have stuck to the example of O'Brien, who appears to have a very wide skill set (though this probably as much to do with his long career and relatively high rate/rank (he was ~30 (probably already PO) c. the Setlik III massacre and about ~37 when arrived on the station) as there beign only one "Deck Rating" (IMO his Transporter/Engineering knowledge esp Warp Systems are likely to be stuff he picked up later on the way to/during training for CPO?

Okay, so in TOS, you had Sulu at Helm and Chekov at Nav. Chekov's job was well defined (figure out where we are and how to get to where we want to be). Sulu's job, however, was less well defined on-screen. He steers the ship and sets its speed. But on-screen, they also had him raising the shields and firing the weapons, which seems a little overtasking in the heat of combat, and at times monitoring what else goes on inside the ship. He could tell when someone used the transporter or launched a shuttle craft.

Personally, if you're going to have a joint Helm-Navigation-Tactical console (and IMO they should entirely separate if you're relying on physical rather than customisable touch controls) then Helm should focus on Helm (ie flying the ship), while Nav assists them by doing complex course/sequence plottings and targeting/firing the weapons (targeting should be bridge function, but your comments re man-in-the-middle for firing have merit esp if the 'bridge guy' isn't (primarily a) weapons specialist. There is limited basis for this in canon, but it is the case in the old Starfleet Academy games and I think it makes a lot of sense. Security alerts, depending on the no of stations on the bridge could go through to Nav-Tact, Ops/Comms or even a dedicated Security Station but shouldn't logically go to Helm IMO. [/QUOTE]

As to the Quartermaster vs. Boatswain's Mate thing, you make some valid points. One could also make a case to merge not QM and BM but rather QM and communications and sensors into one Bridge Operations Specialist role. I still want to keep them separate (due to story plots in my head), but I'm not married to the idea. Actually, I'm married to a Yeoman.

How about two Ratings?: Bridge Operations Specialists (rated for Helm/Navigation, weapons targeting, sensor watch [basic interpretation/records search ala OS/ST ratings but not the analysis work of the (Marine) Science Technician, Aerographer's Mate or Intel Specialists which would be done below decks by non-BOS ratings] or comms); and Deck Specialists that do the "off-bridge" stuff like manning transporters and tractor beam controls (but not Flight Deck, this would be a subset of BOS), damage control teams, security teams (in the absence of/supplementing dedicated Security Specialists (MA?)) and other duties to supplement the non-Engineering/Science Teams as needed.

Does that make sense (especially at LPO/CPO level, certainly more separate than that at watch assignment level for CN & CFCs, less so for POs)?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Hmmm - I'm not so sure. The tactical station seems to me to suffer from the same problem as TOS helm. I don't think I'd want the same guy to be allocating shield power while also arming torpedoes, aiming phasers, internal security, and monitoring comms. The Ops station is probably combining one of the TMP engineering stations, the science station, and some elements of internal security. It's a mish mash.

I think that the navigator, who presumably deals with the navigational deflector anyway, dealing with shields seems fine to me. The later allocation of duty stations seems to be to have been motivated by allocation of actors rather than common sense. I stand by TMP to the end!

Personally, I think the best layout was on the NX-class (same number of regularly used stations, but far more differentiation (mostly logical) in "who does what") but Voyager wasn't too bad and the Defiant had the potential to be reasonable (five primary stations is plenty) but suffered from much confusion as to what did what.

 

[Sgt_G]

I'm thinking about opening a new topic and posting a crew manifest for a small ship with 40 - 45 crew members, and then opening it up to have you all post character background sheets for everyone on the ship. Anyone game for that?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Certainly be interested in reading/discussing that, not sure how much use I'll be on the writing front though.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Sounds interesting.

 

[Sgt_G]

Well, I have the ship, its mission and the basic crew list pretty much figured out. I just want to come up with one character of my own to post. Once I do that, I'll put it all together and get it posted.

The time frame is TOS, just a couple years after meeting the Gorn.

The ship is a modified Priority Transport, a civilian design that Star Fleet uses occasionally. This will be one of three or four such ships on the same mission, but they won't be the only ships out there; Star Fleet and Federal Police have a few patrol ships assigned to the area and there are several freighter convoy (much slower than the Priority Transports).

The six-month mission is simple: run time-sensitive cargo (e.g., personal mail, part for emergency repairs, etc.) out to the four border stations being built along the UFP's north-east border shared with the Gorn. There is a lot of uncharted space between the UFP's core and the border region, so the secondary mission is to survey new routes to said bases. The distances between the supply base and the border is about three-thousand parsecs, so each trip should take about ten days one-way. By my estimations, there are roughly twenty-five million stellar bodies in that region. There are some settlements and colony start-ups, not all of which are documented, which bring a growing risk of pirates. And who knows how many new civilizations they may encounter.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Sounds good.

Since my post about Bridge (Operations) Specialists and Deck (Operations) Specialists, I've also been considering the likely true make-up of the Ship's Security Department and I think Security probably comes in two or three different types depending on ship size/crew complement, mission profile and "State of the Federation" (ie even Explorers might have some of the heavier/more specialized types during wartime, whereas a science ship, patrol ship or escort might have to make do with a single Chief, a handful of DS's if they're lucky and whatever "new meat" they can round up and point in the direction of trouble when it turns up)?

 

[Sgt_G]

Given the size of the ship and its mission, there is no "security department" per say. However, many of the crew will be trained to pull such duties as required.

The minimum manning requirements call for one command officer, one helmsman, and one sensor operator on the bridge, and one engineer and two reactor techs in the engine room at all times. To that end, there are three command officers (captain, exec, ops), three quartermasters (pulling double-duty as helm and nav), three sensor techs (who double as communications), chief engineer and two assistant engineers, and six reactor techs. They provide the 24/7 coverage.

Of course, there is a doctor and a corpsman, one food services specialist, one science officer and three Cartographer's Mates. There are four Gunner's Mates, six Boatswain's Mates (general deck hands), four maintenance specialists (shuttle maintenance, machinist, electrician, data systems tech), and a loadmaster. All of the enlisted above have at least four years time in service and have re-enlisted. Rounding out the crew are five first-term crewmen right out of tech school.

Grand total of 45 crewmen (and women). If you see a mistake, please do let me know. I'm tempted to ditch the shuttle craft and turn the shuttle crew chief slot into another BM or other specialist job. There is on Chief Petty Officer. As of right now, he (she?) is a Gunner's Mate, but I could be talked into moving that over to a BM.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I wouldn't ditch the shuttlecraft entirely, however I would take it clear that your Deck/Flight Department Specialists are capable of - and indeed spend at least as much time doing - general engineering tasks for the Chief Engineer (so that the reactor techs can focus on the power systems) rather than staying in the shuttlebay when the shuttlecraft isn't needed. Does that make sense?

Personally, I'd use DS9's Chief of Operations title which (if O'Brien is a good example) seems to include working knowledge of both traditional roles plus a few extra bits, but if you prefer one or the other (possibly they aren't as experienced as O'Brien) then I would favour shifting them over to BM as supervising maintence, damage control and the "security" aspect (discipline and training, inc firearms) are all jobs that can sometimes be covered by the BM traditionally in the absensce of a Chief of an appropriate rating. Tho I would suggest that one of your GMs is an experienced Petty Officer and likewise at least one of the reactor techs (assuming one/both of the Assistant Engineers aren't).

I'd also suggest at least one Logistics Specialist/Yeoman (probably cross-trained as a second medic), and one of your maintence specialists probably wants to be dual-hatted as Transporter Operator (either that or one of the Asst Engs but IMO the former makes more sense, probably the Data Systems Tech).

 

[Pauln6]

I know that in TMP there was an environmental engineering station on the bridge. You might want to consider having a specialist engineering officer for this plus engineering techs on duty whose specific job it is to monitor life support systems at all times. Also you should probably have specialists with training in computer systems, sensors, and transporters. On a small ship, you might only require the transporter room to be manned during yellow alert and higher and any of the ops or engineering techs could do that if need be. Your specialists could run diagnostics on their systems during their main shifts (possibly working different shifts so that they don't compete for computer time) and be called back onto duty during yellow alerts.

 

[Sgt_G]

On a ship/crew this size, a lot of people are going to pull double-duty. Most everyone has a fair amount of experience, except possibly the doctor and maybe one (or both) assistant engineers being straight out of academy. Save for the five junior enlisted (who were in the top ten percent of their class), all the enlisted are experienced and have re-enlisted at least once, many have over ten years in service. They wouldn't be selected if they couldn't do the job. The question is: did they volunteer for the assignment, or were they volun-told to go by their commander??

Loadmaster = Logistics Specialist. Boatswains are Jacks-of-all-trades and can run/fix just about anything. Some of them may be qualified to operate the transporter. All of the engineering officer must know how to do that. If I keep the shuttle craft, all three of the command officers must be pilot rated. The chief engineer probably is, and maybe some of the enlisted could be, too.

Still debating with myself but I think I will change the CPO from a GM to a BM.

Paul: Good inputs. During normal cruising, there are seven, no, nine people on duty 24/7: command seat, QM at helm/nav, sensor operator at sensor + comms. Because this is also a mapping mission, there's one cartographer probably also on the bridge. In the engine room there is an engineering officer and two reactor techs. I figure there are two BMs on duty running thru check-lists and whatnot every shift, too. They don't have to sit and stare at the life support monitors, but they will check them on regularly. Not to mention such systems should have automatic alarms sounding if something goes wrong. No need to man the transporter at all, even during Yellow/Red Alert, except for when you're actually using them.

The ship, by the way, is a modified / stretched version of this:
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r528/Getgen/APT/APT_LF-iso_24-June-2015.jpg
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r528/Getgen/APT/APT_RR-iso_24-June-2015.jpg
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r528/Getgen/APT/APT_Top_24-June-2015.jpg

That's 84 meters long (to be stretched +12 meters or so) by 48 meters wide by four decks thick.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

On a ship/crew this size, a lot of people are going to pull double-duty. Most everyone has a fair amount of experience, except possibly the doctor and maybe one (or both) assistant engineers being straight out of academy. Save for the five junior enlisted (who were in the top ten percent of their class), all the enlisted are experienced and have re-enlisted at least once, many have over ten years in service. They wouldn't be selected if they couldn't do the job. The question is: did they volunteer for the assignment, or were they volun-told to go by their commander??

Loadmaster = Logistics Specialist. Boatswains are Jacks-of-all-trades and can run/fix just about anything. Some of them may be qualified to operate the transporter. All of the engineering officer must know how to do that. If I keep the shuttle craft, all three of the command officers must be pilot rated. The chief engineer probably is, and maybe some of the enlisted could be, too.

Still debating with myself but I think I will change the CPO from a GM to a BM.

Paul: Good inputs. During normal cruising, there are seven, no, nine people on duty 24/7: command seat, QM at helm/nav, sensor operator at sensor + comms. Because this is also a mapping mission, there's one cartographer probably also on the bridge. In the engine room there is an engineering officer and two reactor techs. I figure there are two BMs on duty running thru check-lists and whatnot every shift, too. They don't have to sit and stare at the life support monitors, but they will check them on regularly. Not to mention such systems should have automatic alarms sounding if something goes wrong. No need to man the transporter at all, even during Yellow/Red Alert, except for when you're actually using them.

The ship, by the way, is a modified / stretched version of this:
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r528/Getgen/APT/APT_LF-iso_24-June-2015.jpg
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r528/Getgen/APT/APT_RR-iso_24-June-2015.jpg
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r528/Getgen/APT/APT_Top_24-June-2015.jpg

That's 84 meters long (to be stretched +12 meters or so) by 48 meters wide by four decks thick.

Missed the Loadmaster, I agree that between him/her, the Food Service Specialist and the officers, with the junior enlisted (and the BM's if available?) to do the actual 'heavy lifting, they're probably covered for the Admin and Logistics side of things.

Your ship looks a bit like a cross between the Xhosa and the Defiant, is that intentional?

 

[Sgt_G]

It's "borrowed" from Star Fleet Battles. One of my back-burner projects is to lay out the deck plans for it. That one only has a point-defense phaser (knows as a Ph-3 in the game), which always made me scratch my head trying to figure out why it's called an Armed Priority Transport. Armored, maybe, but "armed"?? For our purposes here, the ship will have three phasers: one Ph-3 on each side and a 360 Ph-2 on top. Civilian ships can't mount the better Ph-1.

By the way, I have my character written up. I'll open the new topic later today, if real-life lets me alone. I picked the Ops Officer / third in command. I wasn't going to be stingy and take the captain.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I'm not sure if this will help (or even be that relevant), but over on the Star Trek Expanded Universe Wikia there is an entry for "Star Trek is..." which is based on a pitch idea for Star Trek though since reworked. In the entry about the ship (the S.S. Yorktown, a Daedalus-Class ship with a crew of 23) there is a full breakdown of the crew roster, which gives some handy hints for positions onboard.

There are the familiar roles (eg Captain, Exec, Engineers, Medics, Yeoman, Navigators, Security) as well as a few others that might be worth noting:
- Computer Systems Specialist
- Drill Instructor
- Financial Officer (why you'd need one on a ship where money essentially isn't used I don't know)
- Life Support Officer
- Phaser Control Officer
- Supply Officer

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

By the way, I have my character written up. I'll open the new topic later today, if real-life lets me alone. I picked the Ops Officer / third in command. I wasn't going to be stingy and take the captain.

Will there be restrictions/limitations of species? Obviously no Romulans, Borg, Ferengi, etc, but would the crew likely have a good mix of Federation Member races in it?