Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comments?

[ThunderAeroI]

For the purposes of my story it makes sense that they would be their own divisions under a chief science officer. The ship I am working on is a long range, solo engagement mauraduer, which builds jumpgates from the resources it mines off planets, etc. It spends long periods of time away from civilization in an unsafe environment, studying everything it comes across so that once the jumpgate is built more dedicated ships can pick up where the ship left off.

Right now the ship has a crew of 1.958 people, with families the total number of people on the ship is 3,000 and 7,000.

 

[Pauln6]

Looks good, although would Life Sciences and maybe Social Sciences by similar to/associated with Medical & Nursing Section (both ultimately report to the Chief Medical Officer?), likewise Stellar Sciences sounds a lot like Navigation (a Command/Operations section providing shuttle pilots and Bridge Flight Control Specialists)?

From what we've seen, Starfleet training goes alongside higher education so navigators probably have a degree in stellar sciences but additional command training. The overlap is large but the science division would have more people with Phds in related scientific fields.

Social sciences is trickier. There is some evidence that they sit alongside other duties rather than have a dedicated officer e.g. Marla McGivers was likely an engineer with a masters in Earth history. However, some are so important to exploration e.g anthropology that they would sit alongside life sciences. There was a suggestion in TOS that McCoy was the head of Life Sciences but it's more likely he was one of two or three senior scientists who would liaise and report back to Spock as chief science officer. I can see biology falling under medical but it's harder to see botany and zoology in the same light. Having said that, given the wide nature of potential life forms it may be that life sciences is just broken down into medical and astrobiology, with the latter covering botany, zooology, exobiology (non-carbon life), and microbiology, all of which can be called upon by medical to assist with research when needed.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

From what we've seen, Starfleet training goes alongside higher education so navigators probably have a degree in stellar sciences but additional command training. The overlap is large but the science division would have more people with Phds in related scientific fields.

So they perhaps share an enlisted cadre, but the officers would split between Navigation (stellar science as an undergraduate minor or dual major) and Stellar Research Officers (masters degree in Stellar Sciences working towards a PhD/DSc?), with mostly the former manning bridge positions and slots on minor (non-research) vessels?

Social sciences is trickier. There is some evidence that they sit alongside other duties rather than have a dedicated officer e.g. Marla McGivers was likely an engineer with a masters in Earth history. However, some are so important to exploration e.g anthropology that they would sit alongside life sciences. There was a suggestion in TOS that McCoy was the head of Life Sciences but it's more likely he was one of two or three senior scientists who would liaise and report back to Spock as chief science officer. I can see biology falling under medical but it's harder to see botany and zoology in the same light. Having said that, given the wide nature of potential life forms it may be that life sciences is just broken down into medical and astrobiology, with the latter covering botany, zooology, exobiology (non-carbon life), and microbiology, all of which can be called upon by medical to assist with research when needed.

Not sure about botany admittedly, considered Social Sciences as part of "Life Sciences"/"Medical" mainly for psychologists (most medical officers appear to at least minor in this) and zoologists due to at least two of the long-running Medical Officers (Phlox (regularly, esp Porthos) and Crusher (Spot) were shown as being capable of treating animals, and also the notion that some aliens, most prominently Caitans and possibly Tellarites, are likely to have at least some medical issues closer to animals than people? It may also depend on the experience and qualifications of the CMO (Dr Mark Piper was Kirk's Head of Life Sciences in WNMHGB but by Operation -- Annihilate! under Bones, Medical and Life Sciences would be referred to separately in dialogue (and Spock mostly demonstrates a Stellar Sciences background, but with the ability to 'dabble' in the Physical Sciences)?

 

[Pauln6]

Not sure about botany admittedly, considered Social Sciences as part of "Life Sciences"/"Medical" mainly for psychologists (most medical officers appear to at least minor in this) and zoologists due to at least two of the long-running Medical Officers (Phlox (regularly, esp Porthos) and Crusher (Spot) were shown as being capable of treating animals, and also the notion that some aliens, most prominently Caitans and possibly Tellarites, are likely to have at least some medical issues closer to animals than people?

TMP certainly divides physical sciences (orange) from life sciences (green) and I suppose social sciences would have to fall within life sciences because they don't fall within physical sciences. You could have three divisions under the heading 'Life Sciences' I suppose (Medical, Social, and Natural). Here is an interesting list of life sciences as we currently know them, although in Trek most scientists would be considered multi-disciplinarian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_life_sciences

We do know that ships have positions for sociologists, historians, psychologists, and anthropologists but there is no evidence that they have a department or head of department that I've ever seen. TOS suggested that anthropology and archaeology was covered by one officer but there are other specialisms like economics or political science where (usually civilian) experts for local regions are bussed in. Each ship seems to have just one officer for each discipline.

It would be arguable that Chapel, a research biologist who worked under Roger Korby would be qualified in biomedical research, paleontology, and archaeology as well as general medicine. Other medics would be considered experts in certain fields. McCoy is an expert surgeon but lacks knowledge of many alien species so his department would need a Phlox type character to fill that gap.

Spock is billed Chief Science Officer, which is likely a largely admin role so his specialism in astrophysics and computer science just slots in with his staff. We know that in addition to Spock, there was at least a physicist, an astrophysicist, and a geologist on staff. Experimental departments, like physics would probably need more qualified staff to supervise. Likely each department has one 'officer' (typically Lt or Lt-commander) who supervises technicians and assistants for most departments but some departments would need qualified assistants on top due to workload. Stellar sciences would dominate on exploratory missions but classification of planetary eco-systems would require a team of lab rats to categorise samples for analysis. This work would not need to be done by experts. The computers do most of the basic analysis and then the officer reviews this and prepares a report for the head of department.

As has been said, there is no evidence you need a science officer for every shift, although some departments, like physics or stellar sciences seem to have whole departments while others have a single officer.

 

[Sgt_G]

The ship I am working on is a long range, solo engagement marauder, which builds jump-gates from the resources it mines off planets, etc. It spends long periods of time away from civilization in an unsafe environment, studying everything it comes across so that once the jump-gate is built more dedicated ships can pick up where the ship left off.

Okay, now it makes sense to me why you have 24/7 coverage on weapons and science labs and whatnot. I had assumed on my ship that some jobs (e.g., Supply) could be limited-duty, primarily Mon-Fri day-shift, and thus I didn't allow enough personnel for 24/7 coverage. Your mission is different, so too are you manning requirements.

You will want to define the ship's weaponry and shuttle-craft complement to give you a better handle on how many crewmen you'll need for those departments.

A minor item from when you borrowed from my listing: I had Security as a separate entity from the Marines, whereas you combined them. Not saying you're wrong for doing so. But in my mind, they have different missions in that one protects the ship while the other has more offensive capability to board an take enemy ships. Also, it gives a perfect conflict setting for story lines ... Fleet and Grunts not getting along, who would have thunk??

 

[ThunderAeroI]

As you will see in the excel file the security of the ship is internal and external; however, there is a complement of party soldiers on the ship called RAID which is the real assault force of the ship which is used to put down any resistance they come across on terrestrial surfaces. They are not listed in the compliment yet; however, their numbers would be quite extensive. Needless to say RAID (the party soldiers) and the crew soldiers don't get along very well.

The shuttle craft complement is something i need to clear up a little, right now I have effectively seven shuttles on the ship. four shuttles and three heavy assault shuttles. This will get cleaned up some as work through allocating personnel and equipment.

 

[Darkwing]

Well, that was a interesting way to look at things. But it's far more expensive than your calculations suggest because you listed most of the crew as E-3 and below. In real-life, there should be very few E-2 and no E-1 on a ship, and most of the crew will be Petty Officer Third & Second Class (E-4 and E-5), with a Petty Officer First Class (E-6) as a team leader for each shift and a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) over each section.

E-3 and below ARE the bulk of the crew in real life, and part of that is the expense of higher-ranked crew. There are plenty of E-2 and E-1 as well. The manning documents specify E-3 or below, not E-3 only.
Not all divisions get a 1st class, especially if they have a chief. some divisions don't get a chief if they have a 1st.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

As you will see in the excel file the security of the ship is internal and external; however, there is a complement of party soldiers on the ship called RAID which is the real assault force of the ship which is used to put down any resistance they come across on terrestrial surfaces. They are not listed in the compliment yet; however, their numbers would be quite extensive. Needless to say RAID (the party soldiers) and the crew soldiers don't get along very well.

The shuttle craft complement is something i need to clear up a little, right now I have effectively seven shuttles on the ship. four shuttles and three heavy assault shuttles. This will get cleaned up some as work through allocating personnel and equipment.

I'm increasing wondering whether "Security Guard" would be collateral duty for junior members of the Deck/Operations Departments on rotation (mostly Yeomen or Armory, but also a few in Sciences for Forensics, or "close protection" for science teams in the field), especially on smaller vessels. I doubt that Marines (at least in US sense) would be routinely deployed on Starfleet vessels except during wartime as they seem a little 'pure military' for Starfleet's taste (and personally I dislike the use of "Marines" as a "Space Soldier" term), however larger vessels like the Galaxy-class (who have the 'spare space' for personnel that potentily aren't used in their main role for weeks or months) might have something like USAF Pararescue or the RAF Regiment (combination Ground Security and CBRN defence), who also serve as/include back-up pilots for the ship's auxiliary craft and assist the Damage Control teams, probably flagged as "Search and Rescue" or "Hazard" teams (to borrow a term from the licensed games) or something similarly non-aggressive sounding, especially in the prior to the Klingon-Cardassian and Dominion Wars. During the wars, I admit to a preference for either the Starfleet Commandos (supplemented by the Starfleet (Intelligence) Rangers from Mosaic) or the Federation Ground Forces (if a separate Wartime/Reserve force is preferred)?

Also, my research indicates that E1 & E2s are mostly found (similar to the above about "Marines") on large ships like carriers or small ships/crews mostly not used in a combat role? In fact, the Royal Navy essentially doesn't even bother with E1-E2 as a rate as recruits go straight to the approximate equivalent of an E-3 "striker" (ie fully "rated") straight out of training, which strikes me as the approach that Starfleet probably takes?

 

[ThunderAeroI]

Besides O'Brian being a warrant officer of sorts, I'm keen to the idea that there is no "Enlisted" person in star fleet. You are either a full officer or not on a ship. Since the Enterprise is suppose to be deep deployed and not on a five year mission of sorts, being an officer only makes sense. Like what would happen to enlisted on Voyager for example?

Have we ever even seen an enlisted person in Star Fleet? Ensign, sure, but Enlisted?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Besides O'Brian being a warrant officer of sorts, I'm keen to the idea that there is no "Enlisted" person in star fleet. You are either a full officer or not on a ship. Since the Enterprise is suppose to be deep deployed and not on a five year mission of sorts, being an officer only makes sense. Like what would happen to enlisted on Voyager for example?

Have we ever even seen an enlisted person in Star Fleet? Ensign, sure, but Enlisted?

Dozens.

Although Janice Rand (Initially Yeoman, then Chief Petty Officer and finally Lieutenant) is probably the most well known.

Several named characters during the TOS "Movie Era" (Peter Preston, Burke & Samno, Dax, DiFalco), Simon Tarses from The Drumhead (TNG), O'Brien's assistants Enrique Muniz and Fabian Stevens and several Maquis characters on Voyager.

As in modern day, officers are graduates of a multi-year degree program (possibly even holders of advanced degrees) and provide strategic, long-term leadership and advanced (theorectical) knowledge, enlisted are typically less academic (tho two-year diploma/associate degrees aren't unheard of, esp at Petty Officer and above) that focus on practical applications and tactical and immediate priorities. Or put it more simply, Officers decide the "What" and "Why", enlisted (esp Petty Officers and above) focus on the "How" and to a lesser extent the "Who".

Voyager is in many ways a bad example as no-one is getting much in the way of career progression (a fact lamented by Harry Kim on-screen at least once), but the rankless Maquis crewmembers are actually the only ones that might get a small amount of progression, depending on how many "ranks" there are between "recruit" and "Chief".

 

[Sgt_G]

ThunderAerol: I'm keen to the idea that there is no "Enlisted" person in star fleet.

That is a Rodenberry point of view, one that I do not subscribe to. He was a cop and borrowed the idea that everyone joins a police force as an Officer and everyone can move up the ranks of Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, and eventually to Chief, but it's equally possible for someone to stay a beat officer for their entire 20-25 year career. I much prefer the modern military version of officer/enlisted structure and an up-or-out policy.

Darkwing: E-3 and below ARE the bulk of the crew in real life, and part of that is the expense of higher-ranked crew. There are plenty of E-2 and E-1 as well.

Not at all sure where you get that idea. The raw data from the US Navy doesn't back that up.

When I joined the USAF (I was in Basic Training when Reagan was shot), my tech school was fairly short and I didn't take post-school Leave, so I arrived at my duty station as an E-1 but was promoted to E-2 about six weeks later. Today, Basic Training is longer, as are most tech schools, so most troops get to their first assignment as an E-2. Promotion to E-3 is, unless the rules have changed, only six months later. However, a fair percentage of people come into the service as an E-2 or even E-3, if they have Junior ROTC, college credits, sign up for six years, and/or are in selected jobs. Others (in the Navy) get promoted to E-3 or even E-4 right out of tech school if they do well enough in school.

Star Fleet can't rotate new troops to a ship as readily as the Navy can, so I'll stand by my position that there are no (or almost no) E-1 and relatively few E-2 because they get promoted pretty quickly. A ship right out of port will have more, of course, but not for long.

As to E-3 & below being the bulk of the crew, again I shall have to disagree with you. Here's the raw data (2013, I think) for overall Navy enlisted:

• Seaman Recruit (E-1) - 15,421 (5.1%)
• Seaman Apprentice (E-2) - 16,549 (5.5%)
• Seaman (E-3) - 51,001 (16.9%)
• Petty Officer Third Class (E-4) - 58,644 (19.4%)
• Petty Officer Second Class (E-5) - 2,552 (24.0%)
• Petty Officer First Class (E-6) - 54,019 (17.9%)
• Chief Petty Officer (E-7) - 23,359 (7.7%)
• Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8) - 7,339 (2.4%)
• Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9) - 2,936 (0.9%)
Grand total: 301,820 enlisted (and 52,249 officers)

Assuming an average large ship has the same blend, one-third of the crew are PO3 / PO2, and less than one-fifth are E-3 / E-2. If anything, my list back in Post # 67 was a little heavy on the lower ranks. I had 20% E-3, 25% E-4, 22% E-5, 11% E-6, and 3% Chiefs.

All that said, going back to my post from which you quoted me, my comments were directed at the list in Post # 103 that had only three E-5 (Data System Techs) and three E-4 (Linguists), otherwise the entire enlisted crew were E-3 & below. No matter how you slice it, that was completely unrealistic.

 

[Pauln6]

Although Janice Rand (Initially Yeoman, then Chief Petty Officer and finally Lieutenant) is probably the most well known.

I think it's implied that Yeoman Rand is a petty officer in TOS, partly by her seniority to Tina Lawton and partly as she bosses around some of the crewmen. Certainly in Harlan Ellison's re-telling of the City on the Edge of Forever, he stresses quite clearly that Rand outranks the enlisted security personnel and Kirk leaves her in charge when he and Spock beam to the planet.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think it's implied that Yeoman Rand is a petty officer in TOS, partly by her seniority to Tina Lawton and partly as she bosses around some of the crewmen. Certainly in Harlan Ellison's re-telling of the City on the Edge of Forever, he stresses quite clearly that Rand outranks the enlisted security personnel and Kirk leaves her in charge when he and Spock beam to the planet.

Actually, this is pretty much a given as the vast majority of modern yeomen are Petty Officers of some sort (especially as given her age, Rand would be a senior yeoman). Although depending on which system you use for qualified personnel: a) PO3, PO2, PO1, CPO; b) AB/CR, PO3, PO2, PO1; or c) AB/CR, PO2/CR1, PO, CPO; given other references to Engineer (and presumably Specialisms) Grade 4, junior yeoman could be Ables'man/Crewman waiting on an "Specialist Grades" slot on the roster. Personally, I favour (c) which is based on the Royal Navy system.

 

[Pauln6]

Actually, this is pretty much a given as the vast majority of modern yeomen are Petty Officers of some sort (especially as given her age, Rand would be a senior yeoman). Although depending on which system you use for qualified personnel: a) PO3, PO2, PO1, CPO; b) AB/CR, PO3, PO2, PO1; or c) AB/CR, PO2/CR1, PO, CPO; given other references to Engineer (and presumably Specialisms) Grade 4, junior yeoman could be Ables'man/Crewman waiting on an "Specialist Grades" slot on the roster. Personally, I favour (c) which is based on the Royal Navy system.

I would have assumed that Kyle was a CPO if they hadn't re-used him for bridge duty and announced him to be a lieutenant (although technically that was his twin cousin, Lt Kowel according to Kirk). I don't really see why you would want an officer manning the transporter day to day, although I suppose you might want one supervising maintenance. I think we had a CPO manning bridge communications once in TOS, a CPO at navigation in TMP, a CPO in engineering in TMP, and O'Brien manning helm in TNG, although technically, he was an ensign at the time and only retconned later.

As to E-3 & below being the bulk of the crew, again I shall have to disagree with you. Here's the raw data (2013, I think) for overall Navy enlisted:

• Seaman Recruit (E-1) - 15,421 (5.1%)
• Seaman Apprentice (E-2) - 16,549 (5.5%)
• Seaman (E-3) - 51,001 (16.9%)
• Petty Officer Third Class (E-4) - 58,644 (19.4%)
• Petty Officer Second Class (E-5) - 2,552 (24.0%)
• Petty Officer First Class (E-6) - 54,019 (17.9%)
• Chief Petty Officer (E-7) - 23,359 (7.7%)
• Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8) - 7,339 (2.4%)
• Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9) - 2,936 (0.9%)
Grand total: 301,820 enlisted (and 52,249 officers) .

Do these figures include the navy overall? Would you expect to see higher numbers of petty officers and above in admin roles rather than on ships? That might skew figures for a starship. E1 would be an enlisted cadet? E2 a midshipman? E3 a crewman? It does make sense that you would have trainees taking a cadet cruise with an experienced crew rather than the situation in TWoK with only a handful of officers who don't listen when the trainees are pointing out the obvious.

 

[Sgt_G]

Do these figures include the navy overall?

Yes.

Would you expect to see higher numbers of petty officers and above in admin roles rather than on ships?

You mean as in at a base / port? Not really. I think the ratios would be more or less the same.

E1 would be an enlisted cadet?

Crewman Recruit. Not "cadet". Most of them will be in boot camp / tech school. In my Trek world, Recruits are automatically promoted to E-2 upon graduation from boot camp, and a large number get jumped-up to E-3. However, it's not "E-2 out of Boot" in today's military, but rather it's an automatic promotion at six months time-in-service. However, given the length of boot camp (longer than when I came in) and the length of most tech schools, very few get to the Fleet before making E-2 anyhow.

E2 a midshipman?

Crewman Apprentice or Able Crewman. Not "Midshipman", which is the Navy's title for an officer's Academy Cadet. As I've stated previously, with a short window (six months time-in-grade) for automatic promotion to E-3 and with so many options to get jumped-up early, I simply lump E-2s in with E-3s.

E3 a crewman?

Yes, or if you like the title I use, Crewman First Class (CFC).

It does make sense that you would have trainees taking a cadet cruise with an experienced crew rather than the situation in TWoK....

As I understand it, or perhaps I'm projecting my world-view onto the screen, but in ST:TWoK the Enterprise was a dedicated training ship at Academy with a crew full of officer-cadet Midshipman filling most of the enlisted slots, with a few Petty Officers First Class (PO1) / Chief Petty Officers (CPO) watching over them to make sure they don't do anything too stupid. In my Trek world, the training "ships" for enlisted boot camp / tech school are ground-based simulators.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes.
You mean as in at a base / port? Not really. I think the ratios would be more or less the same.
Crewman Recruit. Not "cadet". Most of them will be in boot camp / tech school. In my Trek world, Recruits are automatically promoted to E-2 upon graduation from boot camp, and a large number get jumped-up to E-3. However, it's not "E-2 out of Boot" in today's military, but rather it's an automatic promotion at six months time-in-service. However, given the length of boot camp (longer than when I came in) and the length of most tech schools, very few get to the Fleet before making E-2 anyhow.
Crewman Apprentice or Able Crewman. Not "Midshipman", which is the Navy's title for an officer's Academy Cadet. As I've stated previously, with a short window (six months time-in-grade) for automatic promotion to E-3 and with so many options to get jumped-up early, I simply lump E-2s in with E-3s.
Yes, or if you like the title I use, Crewman First Class (CFC).
As I understand it, or perhaps I'm projecting my world-view onto the screen, but in ST:TWoK the Enterprise was a dedicated training ship at Academy with a crew full of officer-cadet Midshipman filling most of the enlisted slots, with a few Petty Officers First Class (PO1) / Chief Petty Officers (CPO) watching over them to make sure they don't do anything too stupid. In my Trek world, the training "ships" for enlisted boot camp / tech school are ground-based simulators.

Would you agree that it's likely that any E-2's that do exist would probably be assigned to 'second-line' vessels on routine assigments, mostly staging out of starbases or assigned to the bases themselves, with E-3's being the typical minimum rank for assignment to 'first-line' vessels on long-term assigments (like the Galaxy class)?

 

[Sgt_G]

No, because they'll make E-3 before you can blink twice anyway. So for long-term missions, there'll won't be any left after three or four months out from port.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Personally I think its best to simply only have the senior crew (bridge crew and department heads) both in your crew manifest and in your fanfic.
In Conundrum (which is in TNG season 5) had a crew manifest of only the senior staff.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Personally I think its best to simply only have the senior crew (bridge crew and department heads) both in your crew manifest and in your fanfic.
In Conundrum (which is in TNG season 5) had a crew manifest of only the senior staff.

I'm increasingly favouring a half-way house:

I think it's helpful to know how many people and how many of each type you have "on-board" and Department Heads and up should definately be developed as characters, but I submit that including select junior officers (nurses, duty/deputy engineers, frequently used scientists (so as to minimise the Omnidisciplinary Scientist issues - excusable for Data or Dax, but ridiculous for a rookie like Kim), and interesting civilians, as 'recurring characters' in the fic adds to the realism.

On the other hand, security or engineering team members and the various enlisted "screen watchers" (including potentially Bridge Specialists) would probably only be a "name" unless the particular story calls for otherwise.

Only having a half a dozen or so characters, out of a pool of hundreds to thousands, might be a necessary evil on the TV shows, but I think the novels (and some of the better fanfics out there) are starting to show that that doesn't have to be the case in prose stories.

 

[Sgt_G]

PhaserLightShow: It would depend on how large the ship & crew is, but in general I would agree more with Shamrock. You don't need a full background sheet on each and every member of the entire crew, but you do need to have a little bit more than just a name for some supporting characters to round out the crew. You don't need to even give a name to everyone, but you do need to have an idea of how many people it takes to run each department of the ship.

In my case, the stories I plan to write are on a ship with a crew of about one hundred, so I plan to have a name and maybe a paragraph or two describing each crew member. If I were to set a story on a 430-man Constitution-class cruiser, I wouldn't even think of doing that. But I would know how many personnel are in engineering, in security, in weapons, etc. etc. etc..