"Court Martial" Question/Observation

[kkozoriz1]

Perhaps not just the same base. Fleets may cover a number of bases as part of a patrol area. There may be the Fourth Fleet that includes Starbase 13, 20 & 21 while the Third Fleet includes the area with Starbase 7, 9 & 14. Imagine it as the starbases would comprise a "fleet" of their own using the starburst. The outpost ftom BoT also had a different emblem.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Outposts probably have their own insignia like the Epsilon stations.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Starbase Operations has its own insignia. (Mendez's secretary wears it too).

If you're talking about Miss Piper, okay, but if you're talking about the hottie in the command colors right outside his office, she's wearing the arrowhead insignia (which is why I cited "The Menagerie" in the first place).

As for my earlier assertion that the arrowhead insignia never appeared in ENT, it appears I was somewhat in error. It's incorporated into the enlisted rank insignia.

It should be noted that ANY time we had some admiral calling in from wherever, and almost every time we met a commodore (Decker being the sole exception), they wore that starburst pin, as did cadets at Starfleet Academy, which points more toward that being the general Starfleet insignia.

 

[PsychoPere]

As for my earlier assertion that the arrowhead insignia never appeared in ENT, it appears I was somewhat in error. It's incorporated into the enlisted rank insignia.

It was also part of a Starfleet Command / UESPA logo in "Demons."

 

[Christopher]

^ Well, that's more of an intermediate step between the red chevron in the NASA "meatball" logo and the familiar arrowhead. Although, again, "Friendship One" showed the arrowhead in use in the 2060s, though it was on its side.

 

[T'Girl]

we might be trying to assign a bit too much importance to the arrowhead prior to 2270

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The general arrowhead shape seems to be quite popular.

Symbols for NASA, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, the Russian Federal Space Agency

and the Indian Space Research Organization.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think that from the dialog it was pretty clear that they were from another ship:

(Kirk and McCoy enter, and go to the bar.)
KIRK: Timothy, I haven't seen you since the Vulcanian expedition. (no reply) Well, I see our graduating class from the Academy is well represented. Corrigan. Teller. How you doing, Mike?
MIKE: (An older man in a gold shirt) I'll get by, Jim.
TIMOTHY: (Dark hair, red shirt) I understand you're laying over for repairs. Big job?
KIRK: Couple of days.
TIMOTHY: You moving out then?
KIRK: In a hurry to see me go?
TIMOTHY: Oh, I just wondered how long it'd take to get a new records officer

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Starbase Operations has its own insignia. (Mendez's secretary wears it too).

If you're talking about Miss Piper, okay, but if you're talking about the hottie in the command colors right outside his office, she's wearing the arrowhead insignia (which is why I cited "The Menagerie" in the first place).

I was talking about Piper, thanks. Never have noticed that receptionist before, though.

 

[ghoyle1]

I can't believe that Starfleet would make the matter of assignment packages so convoluted. Is everybody supposed to be able to tell what ship you're from just by the emblem on your shirt (which doesn't have any text or numbers or anything)? I understand the fun of trying to figure out apparent inconsistencies, but there comes a point when you have to just say, "They made a mistake".

I know, I know, I'm a killjoy. Carry on with the game.

Guy

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

It's more fun to find a reasonable explanation for it than to give up on something that shouldn't be hard to deal with. It's why I figured out years ago about the different fleet emblems. Not a perfect solution, but it's damned close.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I've always felt that the proper way to interpret stuff like this is, first off, put aside any and all fanon and other preconceived notions and to start with the only stuff we know for absolute certain, what's on screen, and examine it within the context in which it was created, not just the time in history, but the producers' intent at the time, and then build from there to come up with something that makes sense.

In this case, we know the producers' intent was that every ship had its own insignia, with the caveat that it's possible that Roddenberry didn't come up with that idea until the second season, or at least didn't have the budget to act on it until then. However, the fact that starbase personnel, for the most part, wore that starburst pin during the first season, and poor Commander Hanson on that Neutral Zone outpost with that fishlike pin, and the folks on the Antares, indicates that at least the germ of the idea was present from the very early stages.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut, we got that bar scene in "Court Martial", the girl in "The Menagerie", hell, even that sleasebag in "The Cage" (although that one can be explained as "Hey, Chirs, this is the guy who gets the Enterprise because you went into business on Orion"). An apparent contradiction.

The best reconciliation between the producers' intent, of every ship having its own insignia, and the scenes from before this intent was enacted, is that each fleet had its own insignia, with the starburst pin being the standard insignia for Starfleet. Around the time of TMP, the process began of making the arrowhead insignia the standard uniform insignia for all Starfleet personnel, starting with shipboard assignments, eventually getting to ground assignments (sometime after the loss of the Epsilon 9 station).

 

[Wingsley]

For a long time now, I've taken to viewing the different TOS uniform badges as being larger unit insignia than just individual starships. Perhaps the delta-shield insignia would signify the "First Fleet", while the funky flower-pedal insignia would be for Starfleet Command and/or certain starbases, Decker's pretzel-shaped badge could be the "Second Fleet", and Tracey's rectangular-shaped badge would be for the "Third Fleet", etc. Or it could be for smaller units within a fleet, such as the "Third Squadron" or "Fifth Wing", etc.

I don't really see anything in TOS to contradict this. As for the apparent abolition of this insignia system from TMP on, that's another matter.

 

[Timo]

Which [Epsilon in TMP] is, I believe, the last time within the timeline that non-arrowhead insignias were seen in use within Starfleet.

It's also the last time we see sewn-in insignia at all.

From there on, people carry solid metallic pins. In the 24th century, these pins act as commbadges - not only the ones aboard the E-D, but the older TOS-movie style ones aboard the E-C as well. For all we know, they were commbadges all along, only in the 23rd century they lacked the range necessary for field use and were only used for communications inside starships (as we see happen on the E-C). And our heroes just didn't appreciate that tech much, and preferred the wall-mounted intercoms or other technologies that left their hands completely free for work.

If we assume the metallic pins always were communicators or other such relatively complex devices, it would make some sense for Starfleet to stop providing them in all sorts of customized shapes. Once somebody came up with the clever idea of combining the jobs of the unit insignia and the communicator (or locator beacon, or whatnot), somebody else then had to rationalize the unit insignia to conform to a single shape...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, if TMP is an indicator, the standardization of uniform insignia was already well underway before the decision to add technology to the them.

 

[Timo]

True, but only if we disbelieve in the theory that the arrowhead coincided with a Fleet centered on Earth and thus over-represented at SF HQ during that adventure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Or it could be for smaller units within a fleet, such as the "Third Squadron" or "Fifth Wing", etc.

My personal preference is for something smaller than a fleet. I guess it depends on how big a "fleet" is, but my feeling is that they would be large subdivisions of Starfleet, and fairly few in number. So the fact that Enterprise in one fleet crosses paths Constellation and Exeter (and Defiant, if you credit DS9) in different fleets seems a little odd, if fleets cover different regions. If the badges are for squadrons or what have you, it's not as surprising.

Of course the badges could delineate function: Exploration, Patrol, Defense etc. But Constellation and Exeter seem to be on missions similar to Enterprise.

I don't really see anything in TOS to contradict this. As for the apparent abolition of this insignia system from TMP on, that's another matter.

But having the badges represent units rather than individual vessels does pretty much rule out the old fan notion that Enterprise was so much better than other starships that her emblem was extended to all of Starfleet, an idea I've never cared for.

True, but only if we disbelieve in the theory that the arrowhead coincided with a Fleet centered on Earth and thus over-represented at SF HQ during that adventure.

But surely those assigned to Starfleet HQ, at a level above individual fleets, would not wear the insignia of a one fleet in preference to another. Kirk wearing the arrowhead as Chief of Starfleet Operations is a strong indication that it is the insignia of Starfleet in general.

--Justin

 

[Christopher]

But having the badges represent units rather than individual vessels does pretty much rule out the old fan notion that Enterprise was so much better than other starships that her emblem was extended to all of Starfleet, an idea I've never cared for.

Neither have I. It's so damn fannish, assuming that people within the universe are just as much in love with the Enterprise to the exclusion of all other ships and crews as the fans are. And I think that if Starfleet singled out one ship and crew for honors like that, it would be seen as a slight to all the other brave crews and captains out there.

Which is why I'm so glad that "Friendship One" made it canonical that the arrowhead emblem predated TOS by two whole centuries.

 

[Ssosmcin]

There was a point when the Federation was trying to get by on this whole "we don't use money thing" but was running out of "credits" to keep certain programs going. So they took on corporate sponsors to help out. They started sponsoring a few ships and bases here and there to see how it worked out. Those ships and bases had the comporate emblem. Once the program proved to be a success, they decided to let Pontiac sponsor the whole Starfleet, and everyone had the same symbol - albeit upside down.

 

[Timo]

So the fact that Enterprise in one fleet crosses paths Constellation and Exeter (and Defiant, if you credit DS9) in different fleets seems a little odd, if fleets cover different regions.

One might speculate that the formations for which a given symbol applies are all capable of detaching perhaps one or two cruisers of Constitution caliber to deep space exploration at a given time. Thus, the formations would only overlap spatially insofar as the cruisers' missions overlapped - and they would only overlap if a cruiser from one formation was in need of help from a cruiser from another, which would be true of most of the TOS encounters: Starfleet was looking for the Defiant and the Exeter, even if it was never made explicit that Kirk had the mission of finding these ships, and Kirk's ship in turn decided to have a look at the same trail of destruction the Constellation had stumbled onto, possibly from a different direction.

But surely those assigned to Starfleet HQ, at a level above individual fleets, would not wear the insignia of a one fleet in preference to another. Kirk wearing the arrowhead as Chief of Starfleet Operations is a strong indication that it is the insignia of Starfleet in general.

We could argue that we didn't really see SF HQ personnel in the "air tram hangar" scene, we saw 1st Fleet HQ personnel only, this HQ being housed in a building complex of its own. And Kirk might have been the big boss of 1st Fleet, possibly a more natural posting for a junior flag officer of very low flag rank than head honcho of heverything, but still worthy of the pompous name.

But the transition does kick in at some point. It could be in TMP already. Or it could be that ST2-5 all featured 1st Fleet vessels and personnel only, and other Fleets at the time still had their own symbols. Or it could be that even ST6 still featured a range of symbols, and the presence of the arrowhead in the briefing room where the future of the entire Federation was discussed was through coincidence or through the fact that 1st Fleet took care of the Klingon front...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Neither have I. It's so damn fannish, assuming that people within the universe are just as much in love with the Enterprise to the exclusion of all other ships and crews as the fans are. And I think that if Starfleet singled out one ship and crew for honors like that, it would be seen as a slight to all the other brave crews and captains out there.

"Nice try, Constellation! Tough luck, Intrepid!"

And Kirk might have been the big boss of 1st Fleet, possibly a more natural posting for a junior flag officer of very low flag rank than head honcho of heverything, but still worthy of the pompous name.

If that were the case, his title should be something like "[position] First Fleet." "Starfleet" has been firmly established as referring to the entire service, and the title Chief of Starfleet Operations sounds pretty clearly like a position overseeing operations at the Starfleet level.

--Justin