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couple questions about new trek?

What can I say? JJ loves his smartphone, so he had a whole room built like it.

But whatever your opinions of the artistic design, if both Saaviks can be Saavik, and both Zephram Cochranes can be Zephram Cochrane when they look and act nothing alike, and if Klingons can spawn bumpy heads and go from sly villains to honour-obsessed berzerkers, then a spaceship design can be swapped out just the same.
 
No question that a design CAN be swapped out. However, we're not talking about IF they can but if a new design should improve on what has come before.

Saavik & Cochrane were due to the previous actors not being available for whatever reason.

The Klingons were an attempt to make them more alien. The TMP version was a little over the top and the look was refined as time went on.

The NuBridge isn't a refinement. It's an overly bright mishmash of design elements. Do the displays on Uhura's console REALLY look more advanced that what could have been accomplished by refining the displays on the TOS bridge, much like was done for the TOS movies? Look at the display on the upper left part of her console. Does that REALLY look so much better?

A big part of the design problems on the movie have to do with the different parts don't look like they belong together. Compare the bridge, transporter room and corridors to engineering and the shuttles. The don't go together. There's no continuity of design.
 
What you're saying is entirely subjective. I never had any problem with the way the ships, sets, breweries and shuttles looked. I didn't get any jarring disconnects at all. The consoles, doors, graphics, colours all seemed to mesh for me. The bridge set even had the same floor colour as the brewery.

I would say the consoles in STXI are more advanced looking than anything in prior Star Trek. The animated displays on the bridge give me the impression a lot more data is being given the user at a glance than any of the blinking squares of TOS or circular Okudagrams of the later movies in years past, or the TNG variants. A blinking square is on or off, red or yellow or green, whereas a blue and white swirling 3D graphic says a lot more at any one time (and would make a cool screensaver).

You should read some of the furious rants about Klingons turning into "munchkins" from angry fans in 1979. What's happening now is exactly the same thing.
 
Also, those in charge could have picked replacement actors for Saavik, Cochrane and the rest that better resembled the originals if they thought it necessary. As it was they didn't even try for anything close, in looks or acting style.
 
I'm not saying that the displays should be EXACTLY the same as TOS. I'm saying that it could be updated to current technology. It doesn't have to be an exact duplicate.

I'm glad for you that you like the brewery set complete with windows and cinderblock walls. If that works for you as an advanced FTL spacecraft could look like then that's good for you. For me, it looked like a brewery.

As to the color of the floor you're not serious, are you? If I took a piece of carpet from the Oval Office and put it in a warehouse I wouldn't think that they were part of the same place.

Of course it's all subjective, we're talking about design. Some people would have no problem with big pull switches and exposed breaker boxes on the bridge. That doesn't mean that it's a good design. It just means that they like it.
 
kkozoriz1 said:
If I took a piece of carpet from the Oval Office and put it in a warehouse I wouldn't think they were part of the same place.

Yet in Star Trek's world, the president's office is also the Enterprise's ten-forward lounge, but they're not the same place although they are in the same continuity. :p
 
You mean the set is the same. Just re-dressed. Nobody would know that unless they actually looked it up or read about it. It doesn't mean that the president's office is at the front of deck 10 on the Enterprise-D. :D
 
Question: If we accept that the Narada affected the TOS timeline, why can't we accept that the TCW/Xindi incidents in ENT affected the pre-TOS timeline?...
 
I've found the debate about interior between kkozoriz1 and KingDaniel to be quite awesome in these matters, I wonder how Kirk, Spock and McCoy would have dealt with such an argument....?

theenemywithinhd801.jpg
 
Looked more modern? Less campy r cartoonish? Seriously?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1486.jpg

[Hotlinked and oversized image converted to link. Images posted inline should be hosted on web space belonging to you. Please refer to TrekBBS guidelines for posting images here. - M']
kkozoriz1, please don't hotlink images from someone else's site. Also, 1920 pixels wide is much too large for inline image; it bends the page all out of shape. Take a minute and look over the guidelines I've linked above, 'K? :)
 
You mean the set is the same. Just re-dressed. Nobody would know that unless they actually looked it up or read about it.

Or perhaps by watching the film. All they did was remove the starfield and the bar and put an old wooden desk and chairs in. They gave it barely more effort than they did the STVI engine room.

Besides, it's all part of the last phase of the Temporal Cold War: Hiding important rooms in different eras to prevent their bombing by rival factions.
 
^Except in the movie they never mention hopping timelines and universes at all. They say Nero and Spock went back in time, and that by altering events in the past they created an alternate reality.
Okay I'll attempt to reconcile what the writers said they wanted and obviously intended with what they had the characters say and do on screen, even though the real answer is that the writers weren't terribly precise about any of this, not wanting to stop the movie dead for a half-hour lecture on the nature of space and time. :rommie: Instead they handled the whole thing the only way they could, in about ten words, and considering that I and many other people managed to get the picture based on that, I'd say they did pretty good with their choice of ten words.

Spock & Nero changed a timeline, but clearly not their own timeline, since the writers have gone to great lengths to assure fans that the original Prime Universe was unaffected by the movie.

So that means that Spock & Nero created some universe that didn't previously exist by their actions. Uh. It must have previously existed, or else how was George Kirk & the redoubtable Robau alive at that point? Plus they had all kinds of history that they remember.

So did Spock & Nero in effect clone a new universe, seamlessly, so nobody noticed, like a new tree branch budding off an existing one? Sure, why not. The upshot is that nobody noticed that they suddenly veered into a new universe, even if they knew, there's nothing they can do about it, the original branch is unaffected and the new branch is where the action is now.

I don't think this is what "really" happened because Star Trek has been living in multiverse land ever since Mirror, Mirror. Multiverse theory holds that there is an infinite number of parallel universes. The other option is that there is one universe, end of story. So if you know of two universes, then you've hopped into multiverse-land. Why should there just be two universes (and now three?) Why would it stop at that number? It doesn't make sense intuitively. What makes sense is one, or infinity.

The one and only reason TOS/TNG etc weren't "erased" is because the writers retconned how Star Trek time travel works to the multiverse model (which it has used before, just not as frequently as the single-changable-timeline one).
They didn't retcon it because they established that there's at least one other reality in Mirror, Mirror. That was the big seismic change. Additional realities should come as no surprise. I'd be far more surprised if there were only two realities.

If Kirk & the gang had a transporter accident that took them to the MU in the 22nd C, that would have been perfectly legit as a storyline, and anything they did in that story would not have had an impact on their own timeline, since they are in a different reality that does not intersect with their own. That sort of time travel has been possible in Star Trek for decades now, but writers have not chosen taken advantage of that, instead sticking (generally) to time travel within the characters' own reality.

So we're talking about two separate types of time travel which have entirely different consequences. Time travel within your own timeline has not been dispensed with either in the Prime U or Abrams U, and stories could be written in the future using that system.

How the MU came into being is another issue - I like the notion that Edith Keeler didn't die and set in motion a disastrous chain of events - but that assumes there was a separate MU reality all along, because in the Prime U timeline, she did die, so whose timeline was it where she survived? Someone else's.

So if the MU always existed, then there are realities that "always exist" in parallel to the Prime U, and why shouldn't the Abrams U follow this pattern as well? Maybe the Abrams U "always existed" as a near-perfect clone of the Prime U, and its trajectory was altered by the introduction of Spock and Nero.

If there's an infinite number of realities, anything that could happen must happen in one of them. Spock & Nero had to do what they did in some reality or other, so why shouldn't it happen in the reality where the cameras are pointed at for our movie?

She actually said "an alternate reality".
Oh, thanks. So Orci & Kurtzman were clear. How can an alternate reality be interpeted as anything but, well, an alternate reality? It's a different universe, case closed. The only question remaining is whether the different reality happened through a tree branch budding, or more like the MU, and was always there, but that's a philosophical question that has no bearing on how the story goes or will go in the future.

Technically speaking, there was nothing in this movie aside from that throwaway line from Uhura that made any suggestion whatsoever that the TOS/TNG timeline still exists.
There was no reason to believe that anything untoward had happened to the Prime U, either. Practically speaking it will remain dormant until such time as Star Trek writers decide it would be fun to return to it. Then it will suddenly spring back into being unharmed and I wouldn't be surprised if these future writers decide that Romulus actually wasn't destroyed after all, which of course will lead to furious fan speculation that this is a different universe altogether...

Or we could all choose to believe that the universe Old Spock came from wasn't the Prime Universe. It could have been some heretofore unknown fourth reality. There are an infinite number of Spocks bopping around the multiverse, so whose to say who that guy was?!?
Question: If we accept that the Narada affected the TOS timeline, why can't we accept that the TCW/Xindi incidents in ENT affected the pre-TOS timeline?...

a) The Narada did not affect the TOS timeline in the Prime U and for all we know, the Narada was "supposed" to affect the Abrams U in exactly the way it did.

b) The TCW was so badly written that it's anybody's guess what happened.
 
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I think you're over-complicating things. "Nero and Spock went back in time, changed history and things are different now" is what the movie depicted. Spock and Uhura make it clear history diverged from the point where Nero arrived in 2233.

All this talk of "did the universe branch off or was it an identical, pre-existing one" is meaningless. If it was identical, there's no way to ever know if it's the same one or not.
If you interpret the visual update/retcon of the TOS era from the 1960's to 2009 as "proof" the timeline was a different one to begin with, you open a can of worms that breaks Star Trek all the way back past Enterprise's retcons, past TNG's, past the complete reimagining of TMP, past the goofs in TOS, to the tombstone of "James R. Kirk" in the second pilot and when you're done leaves every episode and movie in it's own seperate reality, free of continuity clashes.

To say one retcon or goof is acceptable but another is "a pre-existing slightly different alternate universe" is ridiculous.
 
The visuals and tech were not retconned. As far as the visuals and updated tech, Orci made it clear on numerous occasions in several interviews (most noted on trekmovie.com) that the Narada's appearance and ripple effect is the cause of all the visual differences as well as the JJPrise being built on Earth in Iowa instead of in space over San Francisco.
 
The visuals and tech were not retconned. As far as the visuals and updated tech, Orci made it clear on numerous occasions in several interviews (most noted on trekmovie.com) that the Narada's appearance and ripple effect is the cause of all the visual differences as well as the JJPrise being built on Earth in Iowa instead of in space over San Francisco.

That works for the Enterprise, but not the Kelvin, megalopolis San Fransisco, planet Vulcan etc. Nothing in the film looks quite as it did in prior Treks, and in the case of San Fran, there's no way the insanely overbuilt supercity with it's 400-floor arcologies could be "de-built" to the way it looked in TMP 15 years later. You just have to pretend it "always" looked like that, in the same way Klingons "always" had bumpy heads (at least until that Enterprise two-parter) or that there was "always" an Enterprise before Kirk's captained by Jonathan Archer.
 
All I have to do is "pretend" that the JJ-Verse is a completely separate alternate universe completely disconnected from the original. That's why everything is so radically different. It's that easy.
 
Gotham City in the The Dark Knight looks totally different to how it did in Batman Begins. Are they entirely disconnected alternate universes too?

I give up. Somehow you're allowed to entirely change a character's looks and personality (Saavik, Cochrane etc), or that of an entire species (Klingons, Trill etc) without any explenation, but change a building or something technical and it's not allowed? What something or someone looks like should have no effect whatsoever on the story.
 
I'm not saying you're not allowed to change things. Of course you are. But, when you do change things it should be for the better.

Gleaming bright white surfaces and lights shining in your face are not an improvement.

I have no problem with different actors being used in most roles. I wouldn't want one of the leads changed with the replacement being presented as the same character. Pulaski was Pulaski, not Crusher. Saavik & Cochrane each had one appearance prior to the actor change. No biggie. It happens.

The change in the Klingons was due to a larger budget and a theatrical versus television presentation. Again, no biggie.

I'm not sure why you don't get that I'm not saying that they should have used the TOS bridge unchanged for XI. I've never said that. Of course It wouldn't work on the big screen.

What something or someone looks like should have no effect whatsoever on the story.

Would the bridge work if Kirk sat in a La-Z-Boy and Sulu had a plywood surface with a couple of dozen light switches for a control panel? Of course what something looks like has an effect on the story. The set has to look like it belongs. It has to look real to you. The NuBridge doesn't look real to me. The bridge for the Kelvin worked. The bridge for the Kobayashi Maru worked. The bridge on the NuEnterprise didn't.
 
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