Spoilers Counterpart, season 2

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by auntiehill, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    Anyone else watching?

    This show is such a hidden treasure; I'm so glad it's back. We get back to the oh-so-punchable Quayle and his evil alt-wife; alt-Howard living Prime Howard's life, as he brings Emily home and a new agent is brought in to find miles in the Agency. And...a glimpse at Management! *squee*

    There's so much going on here; I might have to go back and read the Wiki page to remember all the things that happened in the season finale.
     
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  2. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    I'm holding off on watching the premiere because I kept meaning to rewatch the first season and then suddenly the premiere snuck up on me. Hopefully I'll be able to catch up quickly soon.
     
  3. The Santalorian

    The Santalorian THIS IS THE SLEIGH Moderator

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    Just finished the first season last night in anticipation of the S2 premiere which I'm watching later today. Excellent show. I had started it before during its original run but got distracted after a few episodes by a stay in the hospital, so I had to finish the other seven.
     
  4. PorthosShadow

    PorthosShadow Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There is one noticeable change to the look of the show that was probably in response to some criticism. I know, some had complained the showed looked a bit dreary outside but now it looks like its a bit sunnier.
     
  5. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    I'm so very glad I took the time to rewatch the first season. Not only did I forgot a lot of the overall story and the details along with it, I picked up on certain things that I know I missed the first time around such as Clare biting her nails (before we knew her backstory), the red/green color scheme between the two different worlds (Howard's ties, the German berets, etc.), and the finer nuances of the thematic explorations self and duality. I was still left a little disappointed the first season never clearly explained the purpose of Interface and the coded messages between the Alpha and Prime worlds as we saw in the introduction of Alpha Howard beyond being weird for the sake of being weird, and it seems with the way the relationship between those two worlds are now, we might not ever get a proper explanation. However, I do appreciate the show didn't go overboard with showing everyone's doubles, limiting it to the Howards and Emilys (but only presently conscious for one), with only one-off appearances or descriptions of other doubles.

    I don't remember if I mentioned this during my reviews last season, but I really enjoyed how the show invoked John Le Carré's Cold War novels with references to spycraft, housekeeping, and dead drops, as well as the general aesthetics of Cold War spying and dreary European cityscapes. Apparently that last part was a common criticism? Well, I loved that part. :p

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    As for last night's episode, it did a terrific job of setting up the board (or at least one side of it) for the new season while catching us up on the events that occurred between the finale and the premiere.

    I like that Alpha Emily's memory doesn't immediately return and that her basic facilities have to be slowly rebuilt. Both times I watched the first season, I kept imagining how she would wake up from her coma and she would quickly be read in on how things changed drastically in both worlds and with both Howards. I'm glad the show didn't take that easy path and has instead allowed for her to recover at a more natural pace, while also developing a new relationship between her and Prime Howard without her realizing the truth between them.

    I'm also glad that the relationship between Peter and Clare didn't automatically become one of loving (as hinted by their final scene in the finale) or one of complete friction, but instead something that exists somewhere in between. The change in residence makes sense on a number of a levels, most notably to make Peter more comfortable with this new dynamic. I'm intrigued it has changed Clare and her relationship with Indigo's larger mission. She's clearly still devoted to whatever that mission is heading towards, but there's also a certain hesitance. While she still holds onto that original hostility (as indicated how she describes her relationship with Alpha Roland to Claude), I wonder how far she still willing to go considering her love for Spencer. Does still firmly believe the Alpha world is responsible for global swine flu in the Prime world? Clare's place in the world is the one I'm most excited about exploring this season.

    I'm grateful that the show is going to continue explore who or what Management is on both sides (or at least on the Alpha side) and it's curious that the Alpha Management talks about whether or not Mira is still alive.

    I look forward to seeing what's going on in the Prime world, particularly what's happening to Alpha Howard and what exactly Echo is.
     
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  6. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Well, Mira is turning out to be the formidable foe and does not suffer fools, or even loyalists, gladly. At this point, I don't think I even trust her when she said to Osman that they're the only two left. Her conniving nature aside, there's no way The School was whittled down to just them so quickly, especially considering how Osman and Kaspar were implanted in various positions of power.

    Speaking of lack of trust, Management sure is paranoid. Not only do they communicate via only third-party mouthpieces and silly looking cameras, they're not even occupying the fourth floor like everyone seems to think (and I'm certain that's true in the Alpha world, too). Based on the brief glimpse we saw at the end of last week's episode with Alpha Management and now the appearance of Juma, it seems like both Managements are bunch of old guys part of a larger conspiracy. I just hope Management's existence and motivations don't become as convoluted as The Syndicate in The X-Files because that's what I'm reminded of at the moment.

    I'm impressed by Alpha Howard's continued resilience despite his harsh imprisonment and constant pounding of more truths about his wife. Now it turns out that not only has Alpha Emily been communicating with Prime Howard, she's also the reason why Alpha Howard held back for so long in Interface. Considering Prime Emily did the same thing to Prime Howard, it's a bit surprising that Prime Howard was so surprised Alpha Howard was still in Interface, but I guess that was more of a response to Alpha Howard's inability and/or naiveté to discovering the truth. Anyways, despite the apparent exhaustion from captivity, Alpha Howard had enough fortitude to push back against Prime Emily, complete with a "Don't come back" dismissal. Just wait until he finds out Alpha Emily has already visited the Prime World. The shoes keep falling...

    Standing apart from all of the conspiracies and conniving, I feel sorry for Anna. She finally got a loving and caring father, only to have him taken away from her without knowing why and now she believes he simply gone back to his old ways. At what point will she finally learn the truth and how will that affect her?

    One thing I'm confused about: At the end of last season, Ian ordered for Alpha Howard to be sent to Echo but in this episode, Osman repeatedly threatened and recommended to have him sent to Echo because he kept refusing to cooperate. Feels like someone dropped the ball on the writing there.

    I had a good and proper laugh after Prime Emily rightly pointed out to the Management mouthpiece who actually makes the decisions and then the phone started ringing. The self-satisfied look on her face was priceless. :lol:

    It's great to see Vera Cherny join the cast this season as the head of Prime Diplomacy. I loved her on The Americans and I'm glad her steely resolve isn't going to waste.
     
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  7. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Come on, where is everyone?!

    I was genuinely worried we saw the last of Nadia so I'm thrilled she's back, even if let her guard down and got herself captured. She made a deal with Prime Howard, but who knows how good that deal will be. At least he lied to his own people, so that's something...

    Poor, poor stupid Alpha Peter. Just when he thought he was all sneaky and clever, not only did nearly get his head blown off, he blew Clare's cover for Indigo and now Claude knows that she's exposed and no longer trustworthy. Good thing Prime Howard is here to save the day (maybe)! :lol:

    I knew it was a matter of time before we met Prime Peter and I love that he's just a bit cuckoo. Not sure what he's obsessed about with the tapes but it probably doesn't matter.

    Fascinating that the Prime world uses a whole prison to hold and harvest people for their memories to exploit people on the Alpha world and it appears to be a fully sanctioned operation and not something overt like Indigo. I love that James Cromwell is simply a scientist/doctor in charge of those extractions and not some big head honcho of the grand big conspiracy that's going around both worlds as I feared he might. Nice to see Marcel pop up again after dying so quickly last season and he understandably has an axe to grind against Prime Howard. Poor Alpha Howard, nothing is working out for him. It's only a matter of time before Lee Tergesen pops up to torment him even further...

    So it seems Alpha Emily was a deep investigator, tracking down evidence behind the flu and even Shadow herself. Looks like another Peter plan is about come crashing down as soon as she is able to regain more of her memories.

    Spencer! I wondered if he would pop up in the present day. I like how Clare didn't recognize him at all, but was genuinely happy to see him again. I wonder if that will complicate things further down the line, especially regarding whatever his mission is.
     
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  8. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    I have it saved on the DR to watch later. I love this show but haven't been able to watch this week with everything going on.
     
  9. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    OK, finally got around to watching it--VERY good episode, packed full of developments and info.

    Quayle, as usual, fucks up *everything* and our Emily is remembering useful things.

    I feel SO bad for our Howard. I hope he's not in "Echo" for long.
     
  10. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    On the one hand, I want Alpha Howard to get out of Echo, but on the other hand, that probably means the end of James Cromwell's time on the show (or at least for now).

    I've reached the conclusion that Counterpart has replaced The Americans as the best television show that no one is watching.
     
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  11. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Even I forgot to watch until today. :o

    A lot of cryptic developments this episode dealing with the evolution of our characters, but one is pretty clear cut: Those Indigo bastards have been manipulating Clare's life since before she even went to the School. It's a pity Prime Pope is already dead because he deserves to die for that shit. The question is what will Clare do now and where does her allegiances truly stand?

    Even before his rendezvous with Alpha Emily and his subsequent capture, I highly suspected that the Claude who was kidnapped by Prime Howard's team was in fact Alpha Claude and not Prime Claude as intended. While it's not confirmed that swap occurred, it would make the most sense, especially in terms of royally screwing over Clare, Alpha Peter, and Prime Howard.

    Aside from the clear cut nature of Ian's screw up with the case, the rest of the episode is a slow burn, setting up the pieces for greater use further down the season. I just hope that things aren't becoming overly complex for complexity's sake, as I worried last season. Things are holding together well so far, but it could all come tumbling down at any point. But at least the show is still richly mining behind self and duality.
     
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  12. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    I really like following Prime Emily's self-discovery, especially when compared with Alt-Emily's investigation going on at the same time.

    Prime Howard in Echo prison makes me sad. :( He's such a genuinely good person and he's getting his ass kicked for it. Maybe his genuine display of remorse and kindness will eventually pay off. Maybe...

    And seriously, how did Shaw NOT see that coming...you leave something THAT VALUABLE to "Management" with someone, and provide them no protection at all?

    I can't wait to see how this all plays out. It does get a bit difficult sometimes for this old fart to remember all the players and the various plots, but I just love it.
     
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  13. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Yeah, I also really liked the contrasting storylines for the two Emilys. While they're on two different paths, the stories manage to demonstrate both their intelligences and their vulnerabilities. We've seen a lot of that for the Howards but now we're seeing more of that with the Emilys, this being the biggest example of it thus far.

    Still waiting for Lee Tergesen to show up in the prison... ;)
     
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  14. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Gods, I love how Counterpart actually moves things forward after slowly setting up the pieces as oppose to shows like LOST and Fringe which just kept dragging their feet even after setting up the board (and I say that with all due love for both shows).

    Speaking of Fringe, looks like James Cromwell's Yanek is this show's Walter Bishop, for better or for worse (but with obvious differences). Now that he has been busted out of Echo by (daughter?) Mirai, it looks like we'll see plenty more of him and there's no more need for Alpha Howard to stay there anymore, so it's a good thing Prime Emily just happened to show up at the right time.

    And yet, that wasn't even the most shocking part of the episode. Instead, it was the cold open revelation that Ian Shaw is not only Ian Shaw, he's not even from the Prime world. Instead, he's Wesley Peirce (Pearce?), hiding out in the Prime world for ten years for reasons unknown except to Management who set up the arrangement. Plus, if I read the scene correctly, the woman Ian/Wesley recently hooked up with is the other version of a woman he was intimate with in the Alpha world. Oh, what a tangled web this show continues to weave.

    Meanwhile, Alpha Peter is so completely and utterly fucked. The delicate balance he created has come crashing down and yet he still was given a last-second possible exit. Assuming Naya believes his newest round of bullshit, which seems unlikely considering how well she has read him thus far. At least all Prime Peter lost was his life's work comparing two football matches that may have caused his diversion.

    It was inevitable as soon as adult Spencer returned, but he and Clare have thrown caution into the wind and finally consummated their long relationship. Their feelings are carnal now but I already noticed a deep disagreement between the two regarding ideologies and I expect that will become problematic in the coming days as Indigo's next big event occurs.

    Farewell, smug Claude. I expected him to last longer after last episode's ending revelation, but it turns out he's just too smug for his own good. I sure won't miss him!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  15. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    Yes, I thought of Walter Bishop, as well. I can only assume that they will use the guy to try to undo or close the rift he created.

    i was rather pleased with the revelation about Shaw-- that really throws a spanner in the works.

    Dumbass Peter is royally screwed. It will be interesting to see if anyone buys his story. I found it rather chilling when the Secretary character explained how she had been a plant all along and then see her kill herself just to help him stay out of trouble --- eesh.

    i felt really sorry for alt -Peter. He seemed a harmless, friendly fellow whereas our Peter is a little weasel.
     
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  16. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Yeah, I meant to mention that. Indigo has really brainwashed some of these people to great extent, haven't they?

    "I'll slave away as a secretary just so I can kill myself in order to save the life of a guy who isn't even a member of our organization! All for the sake of the cause!"

    Sheer madness.
     
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  17. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm shocked that the season is half over already. I hope it's doing good enough to get another season at least.
     
  18. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Same here. I would be crushed if this story ended abruptly.
     
  19. auntiehill

    auntiehill The Blooness Premium Member

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    Holy CRAP, that was a great episode. All the pieces fall into place now. We finally get the full story on Yanek and the Interchange. So our Yanek went a bit apeshit and killed his other, setting in motion the mess we're seeing now. And it explains a lot about his alt-daughter and her cause.

    Just brilliant.
     
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  20. The Scrooge Doctor

    The Scrooge Doctor Bah humbug! Premium Member

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    Holy. Mother. Forking. Shirt. Balls.

    Oops, wrong series.

    There was so much about this episode I did not expect to happen. Most of all, I didn't expect to gain so many answers so quickly, even if they brought even more questions. I especially didn't expect to ever see the creation of the twinning, let alone the development of the Office of Interchange, who Management is, what they're true goal are, and why Mira is so damn angry (i.e. not just the flu). Further, I loved the twist that Yanek wasn't some Walter Bishop-type who directly and deliberately created the twinning, but was a technician turned spy who caused damage to a quantum entanglement experiment while performing espionage.

    I love how the divergence between the two worlds came from something so simple: Prime Yanek's (I believe I have that right) decision to destroy the tape that would be given to Mira, which caused Alpha Mira to come out of her room too late to save Alpha Rainer's life, which led to Alpha Yanek's jealousy and anger and killed Prime Yanek's life over it.

    Also, if I got it correct, the Berlin Wall fell because Rainer died. I don't know if there was suppose to be direct correlation but I think I have that lined up right. I'm not sure what organization Rainer was involved with and I don't know my 80s Berlin history that well to know how the Wall eventually went down.

    The divergence was directly connected to two key moments involved with the Cold War, so of course the very nature of everyone's movements during this series is deeply rooted in espionage. I don't know if that was deliberate or not, but I love it nonetheless.

    Now that we know what's going on with Management and Indigo and the deep history between the two worlds, the series can now move forward with new developments while continuing to focus on the very basis of this show: Exploring the nature of self and duality.

    Lastly, I was shocked and impressed that the show took the chance by not featuring either of its two leads, J.K. Simmons and Olivia Williams, and rested the majority of the storying duties on guest star Samuel Roukin's shoulders. I've been a fan of his since Turn, although I almost didn't recognize him here because of the German accent in lieu of his normally nasal, high-pitch voice, but you can't hide those eyes.

    Also, did you notice that there two sets of twins in the opening credits? I haven't looked at IMDb to see who they portrayed, but do you have any guesses based on the performances? I couldn't differentiate who were twins and who was playing themselves twice.
     
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