Countdown/Novels

[milo bloom]

Different franchises have different pretenses, creating different expectations in the audience. This is why cross-franchise comparisons don't always work in these discussions...

Stories about Batman can be told in multiple media (and multiple actors can play Batman in the same medium), and they're set up as distinct takes on Batman's life; while stories about someone like Indiana Jones can be told in multiple media (and multiple actors have played him), but they're set up as stories from different points in the life of the same Indiana Jones.

......

Like Steve, I find it "reasonable" that readers/viewers expect stories to connect when they share elements of their "fictional reality" in common and aren't explicitly told that there's an alternate timeline at work--even if it's possible to retroactively argue in favour of such "branching."

Here it is, what I wanted to say but didn't quite know that I wanted to say it.

It is admittedly a perception issue. I guess it goes back all the way to the early novels. If I'm not mistaken they started in the early 70's and were quite plainly meant as the further adventures of Kirk and crew. I even remember reading something not too long ago with one of the authors from back then who had "killed" off Kirk and someone from the publisher or studio can't remember, was telling them they needed to "resurrect" Kirk for the upcoming movie!

If, like Batman or James Bond, there had already existed a precedent of reboots or re-imaginings, it would be easier to take. But the novels have always been sold (whether stated or not) as the further adventures of Kirk, Spock and the gang, and with their likenesses on the covers to boot. If they do a separate line of novels based on the new movie, and use the likenesses of Pine, Quinto, etc, then those can be accepted as a different "reality" than a novel with Shatner and Nimoy.

Yes, I know it's not that important and I should really just relax, but I also feel that there's a bit of a Caveat Venditor feeling that's in place, esp for such a promiment franchise. I'd also throw in a "I guess I just expected too much from you", but that's too passive agressive even for me

Just another fan of the Nice, Neat Box theory of franchises.

 

[Christopher]

^But precedent goes both ways. Yes, Trek novels and comics have always been sold as the continuing adventures of the ST cast -- but at the same time, they've always had inconsistencies between them or blatantly contradicted one another.

So I don't see that there's any point in debating whether or not all Trek tie-ins should be consistent with one another. It's simply a matter of fact that they aren't. Even if all of them started to be mutually consistent tomorrow, there would still be hundreds of past works that they had to contradict. The only question is how the reader chooses to deal with that inescapable reality.

 

[milo bloom]

I've already admitted the beast is too big to be put back in the cage now, and I appreciate the efforts of the modern authors to keep things more or less in line with each other.

I still also think maybe keeping the new timeline in a tighter "canon" would be pretty neat to see.

 

[Christopher]

I still also think maybe keeping the new timeline in a tighter "canon" would be pretty neat to see.

It would be, yes, but that's entirely up to the filmmakers.

 

[JB2005]

Why does this bother me? It bothers me because Chapter 1 of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince takes place in 1996. In 1996, John Major was Prime Minister. His predecessor was Margaret Thatcher.

I always assumed this was just a little joke at maggie's expense...

 

[Smiley]

Does Countdown give a better explanation than the movie did about the supernova that threatened the entire galaxy? Under most conditions, if not all conditions, I would think that a supernova's effects would be confined to a localized area of space. Should I just treat it as a necessary plot device like red matter and black holes that aren't deadly?

 

[Christopher]

Does Countdown give a better explanation than the movie did about the supernova that threatened the entire galaxy?

Just the opposite. Its depiction of the supernova just compounds the implausibilities, and has no resemblance at all to how supernovae actually work. Just for starters, it claims that the star that goes supernova is one of the oldest in the galaxy, when any star big enough to have a supernova that powerful would be only a few tens of millennia old at most. (Not to mention that Spock was able to observe the supernova in real time from Romulus... using a hobbyist-type telescope on his patio. Speed of light? What speed of light?)

Under most conditions, if not all conditions, I would think that a supernova's effects would be confined to a localized area of space.

Yes and no. A supernova can lethally irradiate worlds for dozens of light-years around, even hundreds, but of course it takes decades or centuries for the initial gamma rays to reach those worlds at the speed of light, and longer for the particle radiation. So in the short term, yes, the effects would be localized, but in the fullness of time it would be very dangerous. Still, that doesn't explain why Spock couldn't get there in time to save Romulus. Or how creating a black hole in the middle of the supernova would somehow erase or "call back" the radiation that had already spread to neighboring systems.

Here's my theory, disregarding Countdown and interpreting some of the movie's visuals as figurative: The supernova had some anomalous subspace component that enabled its radiation to "tunnel" through subspace at warp speed. This explains the line about the supernova's effects "expanding" faster than expected -- the radiation reached Romulus in days or weeks instead of years. But the source of that radiation was still the supernova itself, so devouring it at the source would cut off the broader warp-speed emissions that were endangering other worlds.

Should I just treat it as a necessary plot device like red matter and black holes that aren't deadly?

The black holes in the film are very deadly, considerably more so than a real one, in fact. The initial one does accidentally function as a wormhole through spacetime, but black holes and wormholes are topologically analogous to begin with, so that's not too hard to swallow. The others, like most fictional black holes, exert a far more intense gravitational pull at a distance than they really would. I chalk that up to a property of the mysterious "red matter."

 

[Sci]

Does Countdown give a better explanation than the movie did about the supernova that threatened the entire galaxy? Under most conditions, if not all conditions, I would think that a supernova's effects would be confined to a localized area of space. Should I just treat it as a necessary plot device like red matter and black holes that aren't deadly?

Gee, thanks for the spoiler alert!!

 

[Smiley]

Gee, thanks for the spoiler alert!!

It's only talk about the backstory in the movie, which is fully detailed in Countdown. If that constitutes a spoiler for you, then I'm sorry. If you're sensitive to spoilers, then I'm curious why you're in a thread related to a movie tie-in product.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Speed of light? What speed of light?

The speed of light is clearly variable in the Star Trek universe. At times, it's infinite (Star Trek: Generations). At other times, it's about ten meters per second (the episode that introduced the Picard Maneuver; I'm blanking on the title).

 

[captcalhoun]

The Battle

 

[Sci]

Gee, thanks for the spoiler alert!!

It's only talk about the backstory in the movie, which is fully detailed in Countdown. If that constitutes a spoiler for you, then I'm sorry. If you're sensitive to spoilers, then I'm curious why you're in a thread related to a movie tie-in product.

I didn't know that the supernova would play a role in the film. I took it as something that played a role only in Countdown.

 

[Destructor]

I'm saying, yes, we could publish a bunch of TNG Relaunch novels that show the characters progressing from where they are now to where they are in Countdown -- but what do we do afterwards? It seems to me that Countdown pretty much marks an endpoint for TNG as we know it

Forgive me, Christopher, as I am a bit drunk as I write this. I want to start by saying that I really appreciate all the great dialogue you are willing to get into here on the forums, it really marks you out as a true fan, and I can't wait to get to the novels you have written, because you seem as big a fan as us, and I hope you know that I'm actually a little bit keener to get you your novels, because of this forum and your contributions to it. None of what I have to say in any way takes away from those facts.

But, as a contributor to a science-fiction universe, don't you think your cavalier attitude to canon actually hurts the universe? Like, as Trek readers, we obviously take onscreen things as 'canon' (actually happened). So I take Spock going back in time to change things as a canon fact, it happened. That's part of my imaginary universe. And as a result of seeing that movie, I read Countdown. Now I know WHY Spock went back in time. Now I know why Nero was so damned pissed. That's become part of my imaginary universe- just like the DS9 relaunch novels have, even though they never 'happened' onscreen. I hope you know the sensation I am talking about here. I've had people laugh at me when I described Soloman's binary partner being decapitated. They said: "That sounds amazing, what episode was that in?" I said: "Oh, it was in one of the novels." and they laughed and looked at me like I'd just invented that on the spot, even though I'd felt the pain of that partnership ending. Books, I am sure you know, are just as capable of creating emotion and attachment as tv shows- moreso, in some cases.

I am not trying to argue that we should regard everything as canon. I'm saying... I have a fictional universe in my head. (I am at this moment, hearing Benny Russell scream: "I created it! And it's REAL!") I can deal with it when things don't match up. I loved 'Federation' even though it conflicted with First Contact when I read it. But I love the universe. I want it to match up. And I love how the authors of recent Treks have wanted it to match up as well. I'd hate for that... I want the TNG universe to match up. I want the authors of the relaunch to want it, as well, to feel the enthusiasm for the new film as much as I do, and translate that enthusiasm to making the universes match up.

I'm not saying... don't let tv logic disrupt the process. Novels have the freedom to bring people back together. The relaunch novels have years before they reach the countdown continuity. I'm just saying... when they get there... let them match up. Don't let the mobius strip have a hole in it. I want my universe to stay whole. Let them match up. I say this not to you, but to all the authors who play in that sandbox. Paramount just gave that sandbox a wall. Don't see it as a limitation- see it as a challenge! Did the authors of the film do any less?

Thank you for making my life more fun, creative, and interesting that it was. This is not a teardown. This is a hopeful build-up, from one fan to another. Help a brother out. Tie these strings together. Please.

"You wanted me to say I needed you? I. Need. You."

 

[Christopher]

Forgive me, Christopher, as I am a bit drunk as I write this....
But, as a contributor to a science-fiction universe, don't you think your cavalier attitude to canon actually hurts the universe? Like, as Trek readers, we obviously take onscreen things as 'canon' (actually happened). So I take Spock going back in time to change things as a canon fact, it happened. That's part of my imaginary universe.

Take my advice: in the future, only post when you're sober. It will spare you from saying insulting and wrongheaded things like this.

Of course Spock going back in time is a canon fact, because it's in the actual movie. Some of the stuff in Countdown is mentioned in the actual movie and is thus canonical. But anything in Countdown that is not in the actual movie, that is exclusive to the comic, is not canonical and thus not binding on Pocket Books. That's not my personal opinion, that's simply the way it works. Tie-in literature is obligated to acknowledge onscreen canon, but acknowledgment of other tie-ins is optional. That means that Pocket's authors and editor could choose to acknowledge material from Countdown if that served the interests of the book line, but if they can tell a better story by going in a different direction, they have the freedom to do so. Neither approach is obligatory, and it will be years anyway before any decision has to be made about it.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I guess, Christopher, I fail to see the need for a novel that offers a mutually-exclusive accounting of a story that's already been told -- the 24th-century supernova, the destruction of Romulus, Spock's journey into the past. Yes, I realize there are multiple, mutally-exclusive accountings of, say, the Mirror Universe, the post-TMP era, and so forth, so to say that a novel that ticks the boxes differently than Countdown did isn't unthinkable and in line with past history.

As you point out, Pocket won't have to deal with integrating the canonical facts of Countdown into the novels for a number of years. And by that time, people may not remember Countdown at all. Or perhaps the continuity created by Abrams will have ceased to be a going concern, and the need to establish the foundation for it will have evaporated. We don't really know.

 

[Christopher]

I guess, Christopher, I fail to see the need for a novel that offers a mutually-exclusive accounting of a story that's already been told -- the 24th-century supernova, the destruction of Romulus, Spock's journey into the past.

I never proposed a novel that depicted an alternate version of the events leading up to the movie. I don't see any reason to do such a book either. I only meant that if Pocket's editor and writers decide it's in their best interests to develop a post-2387 continuity that doesn't include Data being resurrected, Picard becoming an ambassador, Geordi retiring to design starships, and Worf joining the Klingon military, they have the option to do so. I assume that Romulus and Spock would still be gone in such a continuity, but there would be no need to depict those specific events again; I assume the books would just work around them the same way the books work around any onscreen event, alluding to it and examining its consequences rather than retelling it directly.

As you point out, Pocket won't have to deal with integrating the canonical facts of Countdown into the novels for a number of years. And by that time, people may not remember Countdown at all. Or perhaps the continuity created by Abrams will have ceased to be a going concern, and the need to establish the foundation for it will have evaporated. We don't really know.

Exactly. My point is that it could go either way. It's not mandatory that the books follow Countdown, and there may or may not be a reason to contradict it, and it's not even likely to be a factor in Pocket's novel development for some time to come anyway.

 

[Ronald Held]

I have to agree that the supernova must have had an unusually subspace component to affect "normal" space in that fashion.

 

[Nerroth]

Perhaps it might be worth asking if IDW themselves are willing to consider the books as part of the settings they are working on, instead of just suggesting the novel authors adjust their long-term plans to fit certain tie-in comics.



As an aside,

Spoiler: if this Countdown ever got a crossover fic, it would need a new name...

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps it might be worth asking if IDW themselves are willing to consider the books as part of the settings they are working on, instead of just suggesting the novel authors adjust their long-term plans to fit certain tie-in comics.

That's already been answered, by Margaret and IDW's editor at the Comic-Con panel a few months back. Given how much longer the lead time is for novels than for comics, it just wouldn't be practical for the comics to follow the novels' lead. And really, it wouldn't be fair to ask the comics' creators to subordinate themselves to another publisher's work. They have as much right to make their own choices (within the bounds of canon) as Pocket does.

Of course, it's not impossible for comics and novels to reference each other; for instance, there's already been a New Frontier comic. But it's not feasible to do it as a standardized thing.

 

[Nerroth]

So their 'Gamma' stuff is largely being kept apart from the 'Zeta' works, then.