Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defiant?

[doubleohfive]

In "In A Mirror, Darkly" we learned that the Defiant actually vanished backwards in time roughly 100 years and was used by the Mirror Universe Hoshi Sato to take control of the Empire.

Is it possible that at some point, out of some twisted sense of nostalgia, she rebranded the Defiant with the name Enterprise and that this ship was the same that Kirk, Uhura, Scotty, and McCoy returned to in "Mirror, Mirror" ?

What are your thoughts on this little bit of continuity? Does it work? Why or why not?

 

[Hambone]

It doesn't work for me and neither does the episode. Here's why. "Mirror, Mirror" establishes that mirror Enterprise is virtually identical to 'our' Enterprise. Kirk says "The ship itself is altered subtly." If the MU Empire had an identical ship (Defiant) in 2154 there would have been substantial advances to that technology by 2267.

One explanation could be that the Defiant was destroyed or disassembled soon after the events of "In A Mirror, Darkly" and the Empire later re-designed the ship from scratch.

 

[number6]

^^ Or possibly that the MU over time reverse engineered the things they found on the Defiant and the technolocal advances gained by that were "mirrored" in our universe by acquiring tech and info through diplomacy and our dealings with other races and civilizations during the same time period.

Both scenarios seem plausible.

 

[A beaker full of death]

doubleohfive said:
In "In A Mirror, Darkly"

What is that? Some fan fiction?

 

[Bones]

Although I watched ENT regularly, I'm not in favor of any fanwank or retcon of TOS in light of ENT's exploration of TOS's universe.

If TOS was designed with a prequel in mind, and the prequel really explored origins and laid the groundwork, it would be a different story.

 

[SeerSGB]

My pet personal-theory has Empress Hoshi's little attempt to take over the Empire died a quick and bloody death. What's left of the Defiant, after the fleet runs her to ground, is hauled back to Earth and serves as the template for several technological inovations that eventually lead to the creation of the MU Connies.

I just don't see one ship, regardless of the fact that's it's most powerful ship in the fleet, being able to really take take on the bulk of the Imperial fleet. Afterall it's one thing to have the biggest fastest car on the block, entirely another to repair it and keep it up and running at 100% when there's no where to get parts or a shop to take it to when you need too.

 

[Nebusj]

A beaker full of death said:

doubleohfive said:
In "In A Mirror, Darkly"

What is that? Some fan fiction?

Yyyyyyyes, but with a subtext of how Constitution-class starships completely own everyone and everything ever.

 

[Doomsday]

doubleohfive said:
In "In A Mirror, Darkly" we learned that the Defiant actually vanished backwards in time roughly 100 years and was used by the Mirror Universe Hoshi Sato to take control of the Empire.

Is it possible that at some point, out of some twisted sense of nostalgia, she rebranded the Defiant with the name Enterprise and that this ship was the same that Kirk, Uhura, Scotty, and McCoy returned to in "Mirror, Mirror" ?

What are your thoughts on this little bit of continuity? Does it work? Why or why not?

This wouldn't work because the first thing McCoy did upon entering the sick bay after the rough beam-over, was to point out the acid stain on the table, where he spilled acid a year before.

If that had been the Defiant, re-named, the acid stain would not have been there.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defia

Why not? Who is to say Hoshi didn't re-name the Defiant early on, and that 100 years later, McCoy was serving on it anyway and then spilled the acid?

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defia

SeerSGB said:
My pet personal-theory has Empress Hoshi's little attempt to take over the Empire died a quick and bloody death. What's left of the Defiant, after the fleet runs her to ground, is hauled back to Earth and serves as the template for several technological inovations that eventually lead to the creation of the MU Connies.

I just don't see one ship, regardless of the fact that's it's most powerful ship in the fleet, being able to really take take on the bulk of the Imperial fleet. Afterall it's one thing to have the biggest fastest car on the block, entirely another to repair it and keep it up and running at 100% when there's no where to get parts or a shop to take it to when you need too.

This does make much more sense, you're right. I guess I was looking for something a bit more "tidy" in terms of possibility.

 

[PKerr]

Re: Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defia

Bones said:
Although I watched ENT regularly, I'm not in favor of any fanwank or retcon of TOS in light of ENT's exploration of TOS's universe.

If TOS was designed with a prequel in mind, and the prequel really explored origins and laid the groundwork, it would be a different story.

That's the biggest reason I didn't like Enterprise.
I felt like it always tried to "one up" TOS instead of just doing it's own stories.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defia

doubleohfive said:

SeerSGB said:
My pet personal-theory has Empress Hoshi's little attempt to take over the Empire died a quick and bloody death. What's left of the Defiant, after the fleet runs her to ground, is hauled back to Earth and serves as the template for several technological inovations that eventually lead to the creation of the MU Connies.

I just don't see one ship, regardless of the fact that's it's most powerful ship in the fleet, being able to really take take on the bulk of the Imperial fleet. Afterall it's one thing to have the biggest fastest car on the block, entirely another to repair it and keep it up and running at 100% when there's no where to get parts or a shop to take it to when you need too.

This does make much more sense, you're right. I guess I was looking for something a bit more "tidy" in terms of possibility.

Tidiest answer?

The Defiant is seized, Hoshi is put to death, and the ship is gutted and used as a template for a new fleet.

 

[Robert Treat]

Re: Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defia

If the Empire was torn apart by the rebellion, Earth could have been overrun by the Romulans as was speculated in a DC Comics story arc a couple of decades ago, then rebuilt the Empire after overthrowing them. "Empress Sato" would probably have shown her true colors and fled with the advanced ship.

 

[pookha]

Hambone said:
It doesn't work for me and neither does the episode. Here's why. "Mirror, Mirror" establishes that mirror Enterprise is virtually identical to 'our' Enterprise. Kirk says "The ship itself is altered subtly." If the MU Empire had an identical ship (Defiant) in 2154 there would have been substantial advances to that technology by 2267.

One explanation could be that the Defiant was destroyed or disassembled soon after the events of "In A Mirror, Darkly" and the Empire later re-designed the ship from scratch.

that is pretty much how i see it.
and if tpol was able to survive and recover the information she downloaded then it might help explain the shift in power of the vulcans.
then it also might take time to get certain technologies to the point to were similar ships could be built/

 

[Brent]

It is possible that once Hoshi took over the MU Empire their technology stagnated with the Defiant. If it survived they would have taken their technology from it, but they may not have actually advanced any farther technologically as a species than the Defiants level of tech even after a hundred years. It's possible.

It is also possible the Defiant was destroyed somehow and they really couldn't benefit from the tech.

Or maybe the other alien races got hold of it instead.

So many possibilities, but it is most certainly not the Enterprise.

 

[Warped9]

doubleohfive said:
In "In A Mirror, Darkly" we learned that the Defiant actually vanished backwards in time roughly 100 years and was used by the Mirror Universe Hoshi Sato to take control of the Empire.

Is it possible that at some point, out of some twisted sense of nostalgia, she rebranded the Defiant with the name Enterprise and that this ship was the same that Kirk, Uhura, Scotty, and McCoy returned to in "Mirror, Mirror" ?

What are your thoughts on this little bit of continuity? Does it work? Why or why not?

No, it was the mirror Enterprise. And not only for the reason that TOS and ENT are certainly not of the same continuity.

 

[AC84]

SeerSGB said:
My pet personal-theory has Empress Hoshi's little attempt to take over the Empire died a quick and bloody death. What's left of the Defiant, after the fleet runs her to ground, is hauled back to Earth and serves as the template for several technological inovations that eventually lead to the creation of the MU Connies.

I just don't see one ship, regardless of the fact that's it's most powerful ship in the fleet, being able to really take take on the bulk of the Imperial fleet. Afterall it's one thing to have the biggest fastest car on the block, entirely another to repair it and keep it up and running at 100% when there's no where to get parts or a shop to take it to when you need too.

Why not? The USS Defiant is faster, has the most powerful weapons and shields that can take over 360 photon torpedo hits (The Changling). The Imperial fleet is slower, has no shields whatsoever and weaker weapons that are watered down versions of photon torpedoes/phasers. If Archer and Hoshi weren't confident that the Defiant couldn't quickly and effortlessly destroy earth and its fleet, why did they threaten to do so? Why would they need to bluff? Especially if they were armed with the knowledge that the Empire wouldn't back down from a fight. Did you see how easy it was for the Defiant to obliterate the rebel fleet consisting of Andorian, Tellarite and Vulcan capital ships? And these were the powerful alien ships that were defeating Starfleet. The only problem Hoshi would have with the Defiant is maintenance. Eventually the ship would run out of power/fuel/torpedoes. After that, the Empress and the Defiant would probably be fucked. But for the first week, Hoshi could have done anything she wanted to do with nothing to stand in her way. And if she was smart, she did as much damage to both fleets as possible to both cripple the threat they posed and maintained enough terror to ensure obedience.

I'm more interested in how Trip reacted when he came back to the bridge. Technically, he should have been in command. And if he was able to stage a coup d'état against Hoshi and Travis sometime later and took control of the ship, I'd have no doubt that he could have had the Empire and the rebellion at his mercy...and would have eventually figured out the Defiant's technology. Charles Tucker III could have been a God.

 

[Trekwatcher]

You are assuming that we saw the same Mirror Universe that Kirk visited. I always wondered if IAMD took place in another, parallel, universe as the events of that show throw a wrench in the timeline of "Mirror, Mirror" given that the Empire gets 2260's technology so early in IAMD.

 

[AC84]

^^ That works. It would be foolish to think that there was just one universe with the Terran Empire (I'm still of the opinion that ENT takes place in another universe than our TOS). I always wondered what the 24th century would have been like had the Empire not have fallen.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: Could the mirror Enterprise have actually been the Defia

AC84 said:

SeerSGB said:
My pet personal-theory has Empress Hoshi's little attempt to take over the Empire died a quick and bloody death. What's left of the Defiant, after the fleet runs her to ground, is hauled back to Earth and serves as the template for several technological inovations that eventually lead to the creation of the MU Connies.

I just don't see one ship, regardless of the fact that's it's most powerful ship in the fleet, being able to really take take on the bulk of the Imperial fleet. Afterall it's one thing to have the biggest fastest car on the block, entirely another to repair it and keep it up and running at 100% when there's no where to get parts or a shop to take it to when you need too.

Why not? The USS Defiant is faster, has the most powerful weapons and shields that can take over 360 photon torpedo hits (The Changling). The Imperial fleet is slower, has no shields whatsoever and weaker weapons that are watered down versions of photon torpedoes/phasers. If Archer and Hoshi weren't confident that the Defiant couldn't quickly and effortlessly destroy earth and its fleet, why did they threaten to do so? Why would they need to bluff? Especially if they were armed with the knowledge that the Empire wouldn't back down from a fight. Did you see how easy it was for the Defiant to obliterate the rebel fleet consisting of Andorian, Tellarite and Vulcan capital ships? And these were the powerful alien ships that were defeating Starfleet. The only problem Hoshi would have with the Defiant is maintenance. Eventually the ship would run out of power/fuel/torpedoes. After that, the Empress and the Defiant would probably be fucked. But for the first week, Hoshi could have done anything she wanted to do with nothing to stand in her way. And if she was smart, she did as much damage to both fleets as possible to both cripple the threat they posed and maintained enough terror to ensure obedience.

I'm more interested in how Trip reacted when he came back to the bridge. Technically, he should have been in command. And if he was able to stage a coup d'état against Hoshi and Travis sometime later and took control of the ship, I'd have no doubt that he could have had the Empire and the rebellion at his mercy...and would have eventually figured out the Defiant's technology. Charles Tucker III could have been a God.

Swarm tactics for one: Several ships hitting and runnig over and over again, not giving Hoshi (Defiant) time to regroup and repair, while all the time making them burn through supplies and ammo quicker.

Secondly: How likely is it that everyone supported her little power grab? The Defiant was nearly lost because of Phlox's sabotage, not get a couple of crewmen throwing a moneky-wrench in the gears at the right time and the ship's good and fucked.