Could the Dominion War have been avoided?

[at Quark's]

If they had not revealed their existence as the Founders and let the Vorta slow-roll the Federation in talks, they could have installed Changelings all throughout the Alpha Quadrant and conquered all the major powers from within.

If the Dominion had hidden the existence of the Founders and played their cards as you said, the Alpha Quadrant might never even have had a clue as to what was going on until it was far too late, hadn't it been for Odo (who probably still would have had that yearning for the Omarion Nebula etc.).

Makes one wonder whether sending those 100 infant changelings to the rest of the galaxy was such a smart move (assuming conquering, erm, excuse me, that's 'bringing order to' the rest of the galaxy -or at least those parts they deemed 'chaotic'- already was their plan back when they sent them out).

 

[Citiprime]

Makes one wonder whether sending those 100 infant changelings to the rest of the galaxy was such a smart move (assuming conquering the rest of the galaxy already was their plan back when they sent them out).

If one looks at the Dominion War story-arc as a whole, their curiosity about Odo was their undoing.

My guess is their justification for their actions in "The Search" was that Odo was trying to come home. They seemed to have done something that gave him an urge to come home. He was motivated to go on the mission, and was being drawn to the Omarian Nebula the moment they crossed into the Gamma Quadrant. "No Changeling has harmed another." Would denying a Changeling the ability to come back to the Great Link be considered "harm" among their community?

It's their need to connect with Odo that betrays their existence as the Founders.

It's their failure to understand why Odo remains at DS9 with Kira and the crew, and why Odo defends them against other Changelings, that leads to them punishing him, and infecting the entire Great Link with the Section 31 virus.

And in the end, it's Odo going home that causes their surrender.

The Alpha Quadrant might never even have had a clue as to what was going on until it was far too late...

I've always assumed that's what happened in the alternate timeline of "The Visitor."

There's been no war with the Dominion in that timeline. Since I don't think the show would want people to think removing Sisko from the timeline leads to a kind-of peace, I always assumed the Klingons being given control of Deep Space Nine leads to the Martok-Changeling opening the door wide, and all the major powers have basically been neutered.

If you come at the episode from that perspective, it does give more purpose to "Old" Jake's obsession with bringing Sisko back. Leading a "normal" life was never possible, since Jake was really living in a dystopia controlled by the Dominion without anyone knowing it.

 

[at Quark's]

^ Interesting theory.

I must say, however that I didn't really see many clues the life Jake was living on Earth, and the society he lived in was anything close to dystopian - it seemed he had the freedom to pursue whatever he wanted, except for his personal inability to move on with his life because of those Sisko apparitions, that is.

 

[somebuddyX]

We could just have put a big door over our side of the wormhole and a sign saying "Fuck off, we're full." And then the Dominion would be so enraged and pissed off they'd be forced to come around the long way. But that's somebody else's problem.

 

[at Quark's]

I think it would depend upon how the wormhole was closed. If I were the Dominion, and the wormhole was closed down permanently from both sides, I wouldn't worry about the Federation or the AQ for that matter until I had conquered all the territory in between. If, however, it was only closed under control of the AQ, and they could re-open it at any time and invade my space without much of an advance warning, I might consider that a strategic vulnerability that needed to be dealt with, even if it came at a high price.

 

[Oddish]

Consider that the Dominion's way of making first contact was through multiple acts of mass murder. You don't really negotiate with that mindset. Best strategy would have been to collapse the wormhole. Or maybe have Sisko ask the Prophets to not let any Dominion warships through.

 

[Lynx]

The Jem'Hadar that beamed onto DS9 at the end of "The Jem'Hadar" warned Sisko, et al to stay on their side of the wormhole. Now, I'm sure that there's plenty of the alpha and beta quadrants that's unexplored, why not avoid the gamma quadrant altogether and avert hostilities? I do know that starfleet is all about exploring, but at the cost of starting a war? I don't see them encroaching on Romulan space in order to explore.

No, it wouldn't have helped the Federation to stay on their side of the wormhole.

Sooner or later, the Dominion would have started to explore space on the Federation side of the wormhole and due to the xenophobic nature, they would have seen every species there as an enemy, just like they did after invading the Alpha Quadrant.

Or Cardassian, Klingon, Ferengi or Romulan expeditions to the gamma Quadrant through the wormhole may have provoked an invasion too, even if Enabran Tain's attempt to destroy the Founders homewaorld never had happened.

 

[at Quark's]

I don't think we know the Dominion's precise motivation for wanting to bring the AQ under control. Was it because the AQ was perceived as a threat after the discovery of the wormhole that could bring them into their territory directly, or was it because they thought they had the natural right to control and rule the AQ as superior forms of life, regardless of what the AQ did? (i.e. an attitude more like the Borg).

In the first case, the permanent closure of the wormhole might bring an end to the Dominion's intentions to establish control in the AQ - at least not until the Federation develops much faster drives, in the second case it would only be a temporary obstacle for them.

The question is moot anyway because the AQ very much proved they are a threat to the Dominion. If not Starfleet, then the Obsidian Order and Section 31 at least.

 

[Citiprime]

I don't think the Prophets would have allowed either side to collapse the entrances to the wormhole.

They intervene to save Sisko because they need him for their long-term plans. And they've manipulated events to create him by sending a Prophet to possess a woman so she can birth Sisko. I think the same thing would have applied if either side had attempted to collapse the wormhole.

This gets very confusing very fast when you have to ascribe reactions and consequences to non-linear aliens, but I think they would have manipulated time and events to make sure the wormhole remained. They needed their connection to Sisko in order to fulfill his role as Emissary.

 

[at Quark's]

I don't think the Prophets would have allowed either side to collapse the entrances to the wormhole.

That problem can be solved simply by irradiating the wormhole with chroniton bursts, as the Pah Wraith wanted O'Brien to do.
(Of course you could argue the prophets knew all about it and didn't see the need to prevent it since they knew O'Brien would not actually target them, but I guess that's an argument that can neither be substantiated nor refuted).

 

[Ragitsu]

Controversial opinion (I think...): the Dominion War should have been condensed/abbreviated. What we received was akin to Turkish Taffy that overstays its welcome.

 

[kkt]

Controversial opinion (I think...): the Dominion War should have been condensed/abbreviated. What we received was akin to Turkish Taffy that overstays its welcome.

So, kinda like real wars?

 

[Citiprime]

(Of course you could argue the prophets knew all about it and didn't see the need to prevent it since they knew O'Brien would not actually target them, but I guess that's an argument that can neither be substantiated nor refuted).

One implication of both “Sacrifice of Angels” and the reveal in season 7 that the Prophets engineered Sisko’s existence is that he really does have “plot armor.” That since events are following prophecy and the visions and the actions of the Prophets, the entire timeline has been manipulated by them to make sure that Sisko exists and will continue to exist to perform the functions of the Emissary.

One thing you notice when you rewatch the show is that there seems to be a “before” and “after” for the Prophets even though they’re non-linear. As the show progresses, not only does Sisko grow to accept his role as the Emissary, the Prophets go from aliens that don’t understand corporeal existence outside the wormhole to fully embracing their role of being “Of Bajor” and seeing themselves as deities. Every time Sisko comes back to the wormhole to speak with them, they become more and more in-line with the way the Bajorans view them instead of how they were in the pilot of the show. Until ultimately Sisko challenges them that “if they want to be gods, then be gods” when he asks them to intervene to stop the Dominion fleet.

We do know from “Accession” (the one where they send the poet Akorem from the past to help “The Sisko” to realize he’s the Emissary) they somehow have the ability to violate causality and can allow paradoxes to exist.

Sisko, Kira, and I guess everyone else are able to remember 2 different timelines, the original one where Akorem doesn’t finish his poetry, and a new one where he does. Even though, that shouldn’t be possible.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think we know the Dominion's precise motivation for wanting to bring the AQ under control. Was it because the AQ was perceived as a threat after the discovery of the wormhole that could bring them into their territory directly, or was it because they thought they had the natural right to control and rule the AQ as superior forms of life, regardless of what the AQ did? (i.e. an attitude more like the Borg).

In the first case, the permanent closure of the wormhole might bring an end to the Dominion's intentions to establish control in the AQ - at least not until the Federation develops much faster drives, in the second case it would only be a temporary obstacle for them.

The question is moot anyway because the AQ very much proved they are a threat to the Dominion. If not Starfleet, then the Obsidian Order and Section 31 at least.

Both, I guess.

The Dominion wanted to prevent infiltration from the other side of the wormhole but they also wanted to "create order" everywhere they could.

And since all "solids" were causing disorder, they had to be eliminated, or at least be controlled by the Founders and their helpers, the Vorta and the JemHad'ar.

 

[at Quark's]

One thing you notice when you rewatch the show is that there seems to be a “before” and “after” for the Prophets even though they’re non-linear. As the show progresses, not only does Sisko grow to accept his role as the Emissary, the Prophets go from aliens that don’t understand corporeal existence outside the wormhole to fully embracing their role of being “Of Bajor” and seeing themselves as deities. Every time Sisko comes back to the wormhole to speak with them, they become more and more in-line with the way the Bajorans view them instead of how they were in the pilot of the show. Until ultimately Sisko challenges them that “if they want to be gods, then be gods” when he asks them to intervene to stop the Dominion fleet.

We do know from “Accession” (the one where they send the poet Akorem from the past to help “The Sisko” to realize he’s the Emissary) they somehow have the ability to violate causality and can allow paradoxes to exist.

Sisko, Kira, and I guess everyone else are able to remember 2 different timelines, the original one where Akorem doesn’t finish his poetry, and a new one where he does. Even though, that shouldn’t be possible.

I agree. It's impossible to know what the Prophets knew and what they didn't. Even though they can survey 'our' time and violate causality, they still seem to live in a 'timeline of their own' for lack of a better expression that they don't oversee the same way they can survey our timeline. Or they would have been all-knowing in Emissary already.

Of course there's a possibility they were just 'playing along' there but that's another one of those unverifiable hypotheses.

I agree that it seems 'Sisko' has 'plot armor' but it's still possible to argue against the case they foresaw everything in our timeframe.

For example, why would the Pah Wraith try to kill them this way in the first place if he/she/it knew the prophets would know all about it and hence the attempt would inevitably fail - and it would know that, essentially being a banished 'prophet' itself. (Then again, that's a bit akin to asking 'why doesn't the devil in Christianity just give up when he already knows today he will be defeated in the end?' That, of course, would mean you can also borrow a lot of the replies Christianity has come up with during the last 2,000 years.)

 

[Citiprime]

For example, why would the Pah Wraith try to kill them this way in the first place if he/she/it knew the prophets would know all about it and hence the attempt would inevitably fail - and it would know that, essentially being a banished 'prophet' itself. (Then again, that's a bit akin to asking 'why doesn't the devil in Christianity just give up when he already knows today he will be defeated in the end?' That, of course, would mean you can also borrow a lot of the replies Christianity has come up with during the last 2,000 years.)

You also get into some of the same philosophical issues that modern-day religions have if you think about this too hard.

For example, if the Prophets are manipulating the timeline, is the Star Trek universe deterministic and does “free will” exist?

I think it does, since even though they’ve created Sisko for a specific purpose, he still seems to have the ability to make choices. They never really force him to do anything. All of his decisions are still his. And at worst, they’re probably like the Organians and only care about the stuff that affects them.

Although, is it a rigging of “the game” if you’ve set the pieces for the game in places that are most likely to go in the directions you want? Conversely, if free will still exists within this, maybe in that small sliver of randomness that comes from people having to choose, the Pah Wraiths think they have a chance to win.

 

[Frontis]

Maybe the Ferengi could have made a deal with the Dominion to prevent the war...

 

[90sTrekGuy]

Why would they? War is good for business.

 

[Citiprime]

Maybe the Ferengi could have made a deal with the Dominion to prevent the war...

I always wondered whether that Tulaberry Wine contract was how the Changelings infiltrated the Alpha Quadrant. That they basically rode in on those cargo ships, and started replacing key figures like Martok.

 

[Frontis]

There is also the Ferengi rule,,peace is good for business.