Spoilers Could the altered timeline be the same universe as the one in "Seeds of Dissent"?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So if Khan said it was 1996, then how do you explain it? You have to say something.

Because if you just ignore it, then nothing is sacred. It's all meaningless.

For example, if Khan got that date wrong, then how much else in the film is wrong? Did it even really happen? See where this leads?

 

[fireproof78]

Because if you just ignore it, then nothing is sacred. It's all meaningless.

That's my attitude.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's funny, I thought this stuff was meant to be enjoyed.

 

[fireproof78]

That's funny, I thought this stuff was meant to be enjoyed.

I do. That's the point for me. I don't hold on to all the details as much as the characters and the world exploring. Dates are less for me than characters.

Milage will vary.

 

[Lord Garth]

Terry Matalas answer on Twitter:

"Terry Matalas:
We discussed endlessly. We came to the conclusion that in WW3 there were several EMP bursts that kicked everyone back decades. Records of that 75 year period, the 90s on were sketchy. Maybe Spock was wrong? No easy way to do it if you want the past to look and feel like today."

on this question:

"Act IV
@act4sp
@TerryMatalas did you discuss in the writers room whether the Eugenics Wars took place in the 90s or as part of World War III in 2026-2053? #StarTrekPicard I’m guessing the changes in time prevent Bell Riots and different outcome to WWIII"

Might be that Khan had a similar problem with his memory as Scotty in "Relics", because of the long hibernation

I'm in favor of Khan being from the Mid-21st Century. It makes Khan's "On Earth, 200 years ago" line in TWOK work better. Unfortunately, in the same movie, Khan also says the Botany Bay was lost in space in the year 1996.

But, since we're talking about the '90s, let me borrow from Bill Cinton and say that when it comes to the Eugenics Wars: "Don't ask, don't tell."

 

[The Old Mixer]

nothing is sacred. It's all meaningless.

BINGO!

 

[Gov Kodos]

BINGO!

As Nietzsche said, Gene is dead.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Silly me, thinking Trek should be about optimism and not nihilism.

 

[fireproof78]

Silly me, thinking Trek should be about optimism and not nihilism.

Dates not being sacred makes Trek nihilistic?

That escalated quickly.

 

[Dukhat]

So if the divergence in the timeline is in 2024, and Khan and his followers escaped Earth in 1996, they've already been gone for 28 years. There is no evidence that we see in the last two episodes that they are still around. It's one thing to say that Spock got his facts wrong. It's another thing entirely that Khan specifically saying he came from 1996 is being retconned away. Sorry Terry, that doesn't compute. It's also silly to say that Khan got his date wrong because of hibernation sickness. Did that last all the way to TWOK, where he says the same thing?

I'm also assuming that the Europa spacecraft is sublight, which was the next technological step after sleeper ships became obsolete.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Dates not being sacred makes Trek nihilistic?

That escalated quickly.

I'm just a bit flummoxed at how blasé everybody seems to have gotten about continuity. Does no one care about keeping things consistent anymore?

I mean, the Eugenics Wars were always from 1992-96, and everything was fine. Now this pissant Matalas is talking about moving them for no good reason? So what if the next showrunner decides to move them AGAIN? Where does it end?

I mean, TWOK specifically said 1996, so if this happens, you'd basically be decanonizing one of the greatest Trek films of all time. That sound like a road you want to go down?

This thing about having to constantly move the goalposts to make Trek's past mesh with our own is getting really old. There's no reason for it - the Prime Timeline (assuming one still exists!) has been different from our own for quite awhile anyway. So why get all concerned about it NOW?

And as @Dukhat pointed out, Khan and his ilk have been long gone by 2024, so it's not like the Eugenics Wars could possibly have any effect on PIC anyway. They're simply not important anymore. Ancient history, as it were.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway....no, I don't think the Confederation is part of the "Seeds of Dissent" timeline. I'm not getting an Augment vibe from it at all. Besides, doesn't that story have a descendant of Khan as the leader of Earth? You can't have that and President Hansen at the same time.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm just a bit flummoxed at how blasé everybody seems to have gotten about continuity. Does no one care about keeping things consistent anymore?

The only thing I am blasé about is dates. Consistency is important for events and characters but specific dates? No, I don't care.

I mean, TWOK specifically said 1996, so if this happens, you'd basically be decanonizing one of the greatest Trek films of all time. That sound like a road you want to go down?

Sure. The movie still exists.

the Prime Timeline (assuming one still exists!) has been different from our own for quite awhile anyway. So why get all concerned about it NOW?

Dude, this not new. This is literally how Voyager handled time travel in the 90s while the Eugenics Wars were supposedly going on. But, 90s LA was still our LA. It's still connected to our timeline in a way. That's the point, not dates that are rather arbitrary in terms of the storyline.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sure. The movie still exists.

But if this goes down, the 1996 date will have been wrong, so either you explain it or basically write the whole movie off as not "counting". I mean, if they got a major detail like that wrong...

Dude, this not new. This is literally how Voyager handled time travel in the 90s while the Eugenics Wars were supposedly going on. But, 90s LA was still our LA. It's still connected to our timeline in a way.

But at least there was an easy, non-threatening way to explain that: the U.S. simply WAS NOT INVOLVED in the wars. Problem solved.

(Besides, the episode did at least indirectly acknowledge Khan, because of Rain Robinson's model of the Botany Bay.)

 

[fireproof78]

But if this goes down, the 1996 date will have been wrong, so either you explain it or basically write the whole movie off as not "counting". I mean, if they got a major detail like that wrong...

I don't, but I'm all for not counting TWOK.

That's why I treat dates as malleable. The events are critical, not the dates to my mind.

Mileage will vary.

But at least there was an easy, non-threatening way to explain that: the U.S. simply WAS NOT INVOLVED in the wars. Problem solved.

(Besides, the episode did at least indirectly acknowledge Khan, because of Rain Robinson's model of the Botany Bay.)

I my opinion that "let off the hook" is a pile of bullshit. Spock says "records are fragmentary." So, apparently only for the parts that were involved in the wars. Other than that, total picnic.

It's an incongruence and doesn't work.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Spock says "records are fragmentary."

That's no excuse.

Besides, Khan also mentions 1996 - and since he was actively involved in the wars, surely he would know. So even if records really were fragmentary...his memories would not be.

 

[fireproof78]

That's no excuse.

No excuse? Excuse me? (Pardon the pun). They don't know about this big old war that was going on, no media coverage from the US, nothing to indicate what this ship might be or accounting for the era:

KIRK: Kirk out. Seventy two alive. A group of people dating back to the 1990s. A discovery of some importance, Mister Spock. There are a great many unanswered questions about those years.
SPOCK: A strange, violent period in your history. I find no record what so ever of an SS Botany Bay. Captain, the DY-100 class vessel was designed for interplanetary travel only. With simple nuclear-powered engines, star travel was considered impractical at that time. It was ten thousand to one against their making it to another star system. And why no record of the trip?
KIRK: Botany Bay. That was the name of a penal colony on shores of Australia, wasn't it? If they took that name for their vessel
SPOCK: If you're suggesting this was a penal deportation vessel, you've arrived at a totally illogical conclusion.
KIRK: Oh?
SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

Those unanswered questions apparently only apply to not LA.

 

[Brainsucker]

Well, but that war is never happened.

In ST II, Khan specifically says it was 1996.

And in TOS' "Space Seed", the Eugenics Wars were equally specifically placed in 1992-96.

So whatever happens in PIC, it can't shift the wars in any way, as they have already occurred.

No, we can translate it like this : In Star Trek 2 (1982), Khan specifically said that it was happen in the future of 1982.

The problem is that we are in 2022 now. And we all know about our current Space Travel progress is way less optimistic than in Star Trek. So, unless Star Trek will change it direction to become a space fantasy like Star Wars and not about the "Optimistic future" premise, then it's history needs to be adjusted. Or else people will see Star Trek world as the world of Tolkien, and not about our better future.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, but that war is never happened.

I don't follow.

, unless Star Trek will change it direction to become a space fantasy like Star Wars and not about the "Optimistic future" premise, then it's history needs to be adjusted. Or else people will see Star Trek world as the world of Tolkien, and not about our better future.

I agree with this.

 

[Brainsucker]

I don't follow.

I agree with this.

Sorry, it was an unfinished post.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In Star Trek 2 (1982), Khan specifically said that it was happen in the future of 1982.

The problem is that we are in 2022 now.

Why is that a problem? Everybody knows that our timeline is never going to be the same as the Trek timeline. Constantly trying to make them match up - moving established Trek events ever forward in time just because they haven't happened to US - does not make any sense.

Just leave them where they are and be done with it.