Could Star Trek V been saved?
- Thread starter tim0122
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Yes, making God a computer would have been a better idea, but it still wouldn't have corrected the fundamental flaws of the film, mainly that Spock has a mystery brother who was able to make everyone believe what he believed at the expense of their loyalty to Kirk, and stealing a ship to go to the center of the galaxy in record time. And the atrocious acting.
I did my blow-by-blow upthread.
I figured it was either told to him by Sybok or Sarek and Spock filled in the details.
I wondered about that too, but didn't feel like adding it to my list of quibbles with the film. Maybe Vulcans have better memory retention than humans and/or Spock has a Vulcan eidetic memory or...who-the-hell-knows...
It's weird to me to think that one's most painful memory could be something only related to them anecdotally though, and I'd like to think neither Sybok nor Sarek would be so horrible as to share something like that.
It's weird to me to think that one's most painful memory could be something only related to them anecdotally though, and I'd like to think neither Sybok nor Sarek would be so horrible as to share something like that.
Unless Sarek practiced mindmeld with Spock to show him the Vulcan way and the memory came through.
He visualizes his pain as some imaginary recreation of his own birth rather than any of the myriad real life examples of rejection he experienced with his father?
the only one we know of, at that time, is their disagreement over Starfleet vs the Vulcan Science Academy. But that's a decision Spock made, and Spock fears being rejected for what he is, not for things he's done.
I think it needed a rewrite and less focus on finding God. I don't think even at the time it was released more budget or better FX would have made this script any better. It feels like it's missing something at the end. They just go from place to place to place and God's not God and then they shoot God in the face and it ends. But deep down we knew that was coming.
The only two outcomes of the movie were:
1. The Enterprise actually finds God!
2. The Enterprise finds something else that isn't actually God.
Since even a casual, non-Trekkie moviegoer would automatically know which outcome is actually going to happen, they already know right from the start that Sybok is nuts and his quest is ultimately going to fail. And therein lies the inherent problem with Shatner's concept. He wanted to basically mock television evangelists, but he failed to understand that evangelists don't actually believe in God and are only out to fool gullible people into giving them money. And that's not what Sybok was doing. He truly believed in his quest, and wasn't trying to fool people. He genuinely seemed to want to heal people of their inner pain. Evangelists don't give a shit about that; only therapists do. So the bad guy ends up being a misguided believer in God rather than a con artist.
1. The Enterprise actually finds God!
2. The Enterprise finds something else that isn't actually God.
Since even a casual, non-Trekkie moviegoer would automatically know which outcome is actually going to happen, they already know right from the start that Sybok is nuts and his quest is ultimately going to fail. And therein lies the inherent problem with Shatner's concept. He wanted to basically mock television evangelists, but he failed to understand that evangelists don't actually believe in God and are only out to fool gullible people into giving them money. And that's not what Sybok was doing. He truly believed in his quest, and wasn't trying to fool people. He genuinely seemed to want to heal people of their inner pain. Evangelists don't give a shit about that; only therapists do. So the bad guy ends up being a misguided believer in God rather than a con artist.
TFF was the first Star Trek movie I ever saw in a theatre, and I was young enough to enjoy it and to look beyond the silliness.
Today, I still kind of like it ... much like I like some of the sillier TOS episodes. Some are so bad they're even good, and TFF is bad in the same way, imo.
I even kind of like INS. My worst complaint about it is that it's a rehash of tropes from various TNG episodes. A kind of boring TNG medley.
NEM doesn't work for me, because I just don't buy that Tom Hardy is Picard's clone. He is nothing like Stewart. Maybe it would have worked better, if Stewart had played both roles.
Today, I still kind of like it ... much like I like some of the sillier TOS episodes. Some are so bad they're even good, and TFF is bad in the same way, imo.
I even kind of like INS. My worst complaint about it is that it's a rehash of tropes from various TNG episodes. A kind of boring TNG medley.
NEM doesn't work for me, because I just don't buy that Tom Hardy is Picard's clone. He is nothing like Stewart. Maybe it would have worked better, if Stewart had played both roles.
I am also in the camp that good special effects cannot rescue a bad film. SFX are the frosting, but the cake has to be good too. A really good cake can even be fine without frosting. Maybe a plot that hasn't been used in episodes before because it couldn't be told in an hour? Or with TV production limitations?
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Maybe if Shatner had stuck closer to his original idea -- examining the rampant grift and fraud among televangelists -- it might have been at least interesting. But Sybok just didn't work for me.
Shatner's idea was that they were going to end up fighting the devil. The real devil. I'm... less than confident that would have been a better approach.
I dig Nemesis, Insurrection is a crime against humanity.
Come on, it's worth it just for F. Murray Abraham and "A British Tar" alone!
Especially since we already met Lucifer once.
On a technical level yes, on an everything else level? No. Even with how much I found myself enjoying the film and taking it all in, there are just a lot of things that hold the story back from being anything but a half-coherent effort at taking a swing at an eternal issue of 'People who preach siphoning money off of others like parasites'. Any kind of salvage is obviously only going to come in a medium that can do what it wants like the novelization as everything else relies on the usual assembly of actors, crew, etc. That's also keeping in mind that I don't want ai anywhere near this film.
Though if I'll be real, the one thing that will never be fixed is that ending, because I find it to be just perfect in every single way.
Though if I'll be real, the one thing that will never be fixed is that ending, because I find it to be just perfect in every single way.
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