Could modern Excelsior class beat an Intrepid in combat?

[TheSubCommander]

WHO is in charge of the ship makes a difference, and if Sisko were commanding, I think Defiant would have decisively defeated Lakota

And if Sisko were in command of the Lakota?

I'd have to give it to the Lakota, since he knows the Defiant's weaknesses. Plus, he's....The Sisko. Give him an Oberth, and he might still win.

I was thinking about SubCommander's comments, and I think he has an important point about the Excelsiors being old tech.

Actually, I think that the Sovereign class came out of a project to replace the aging Excelsiors. Perhaps the project was well enough along that it was promoted rather than cancelled when the Borg appeared.

In the mean time, the Excelsiors in TNG still seemed useful, at least in milk runs.

In peacetime, the Excelsiors are probably still totally serviceable as far as most roles (scientific, diplomatic missions, patrolling the neutral zone, assisting planets of the federation with various issues). A wing of upgraded Excelsiors is still likely pretty deadly, too. I wouldn't relegate them to milk runs, necessarily, just that their missions as capital ships (like the Galaxies and Sovereigns) has changed, since they are no longer the latest and greatest. We see more Excelsiors than the Ambassadors, so they are doing something right, anyway.

But each ship is a culmination of what came before it, and I think the Intrepids just basically have everything the Excelsiors had, plus newer tech. They may not be quite as massive, but I think it is fair to say their structure maybe tougher, and their tech more advanced and efficient. I also think htye are faster and more maneuverable. We saw how Voyager took on ships many times its size and won, so I think size isn't that much of a factor. Besides since a single phaser blast or photon torpedo can destroy an un-shielded Galaxy class, all ships are relying on their shields, and since the Intrepids have newer engines that go faster, I think its reasonable to assume they are more powerful and can create more shield output for defense.

 

[Tim Walker]

The continued usefulness of the Excelsiors, like the Mirandas, probably delayed replacement with new designs. In the mean time, Star Fleet launched new designs for big exploration cruisers-the premiere ships of Star Fleet-the Ambassador and Galaxy classes.

To elaborate, I think it was the Borg that resulted in a decision to actually build the Sovereign class. The idea would be a battle cruiser with the latest and greatest, that could take on a formidable new foe.

The catch is that it seems to take a long time to build the bigger ships.

 

[T'Girl]

Actually, I think that the Sovereign class came out of a project to replace the aging Excelsiors.

Of course we don't really know how old the "Sovereign" design is. The Enterprise E was a new build, but the class itself could have been around for multiple decades.

... the Intrepids ... and their tech more advanced and efficient.

The STTNG tech manual (iirc) say the Galaxy's were intended to be pulled out of service every twenty years and given a comprehensive overhaul. If this was the standard for Starfleet vessels then the Excelsiors' tech would be no older than twenty years max and depending on the ship maybe considerable younger. I would take it for granted that little (if any) of the ship's original tech still remains aboard.

Shield emitters, deflectors, phasers, sensors were state of the art at the time of the last overhaul ... even replicators and holodecks. I believe Riker said his previous ship, an Excelsior (?), had (older) holodeck technology.

They retained the original nacelle housing, but the coils within could date back only as far as the last overhaul.

 

[Tim Walker]

Interesting points, T'Girl.

First Contact featured a number of classes we hadn't seen before: Saber, Steamrunner, Akira, Norway. This might be plausible if these ships were rare. Perhaps there was a single prototype, or at most only a handful of a particular class were ever built. But if they were armed, I can see them pressed into service out of sheer desperation.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Actually, I think that the Sovereign class came out of a project to replace the aging Excelsiors.

Of course we don't really know how old the "Sovereign" design is. The Enterprise E was a new build, but the class itself could have been around for multiple decades.

... the Intrepids ... and their tech more advanced and efficient.

The STTNG tech manual (iirc) say the Galaxy's were intended to be pulled out of service every twenty years and given a comprehensive overhaul. If this was the standard for Starfleet vessels then the Excelsiors' tech would be no older than twenty years max and depending on the ship maybe considerable younger. I would take it for granted that little (if any) of the ship's original tech still remains aboard.

Shield emitters, deflectors, phasers, sensors were state of the art at the time of the last overhaul ... even replicators and holodecks. I believe Riker said his previous ship, an Excelsior (?), had (older) holodeck technology.

They retained the original nacelle housing, but the coils within could date back only as far as the last overhaul.

All fair points, however, when a ship is of an older design, there is only so far upgrades can take it. Now, a 23rd Century excelsior class is no match for a 24th century one. The Excelsiors during the Dominion war were likely very formidable. However, if all that needed to be done is upgrade a ship every 20 years, then there would be no need for Galaxies, Ambassadors, or Sovereigns at all! However, there must be some benefit to designing new ships beyond Excelsior classes, because they keep doing it. Conversely, if there isn't a point where upgrades face diminishing returns and hit the wall, then why aren't there any Constitution classes, left? Indeed, why even create Excelsiors at all? Why not just keep upgrading the NX-01s?

So no, I have to believe that there is a benefit to newer ships, over old ones, especially when concerning Excelsiors vs Intrepids. I can't agree that an Excelsior will ever be superior to an Intrepid. Maybe close to its equal with the right upgrades (and with the Intrepid with not enough upgrades). Maybe with the right commander, such an Excelsior CAN pull off a win against an Intrepid, too. But that is about it. However, I think if each class were maxed out as far as the technology will go, I tend to think the Intrepids just by the nature of the fact of them being newer ship designs (and if with equal level commanders and crew), I have to say the Intrepids have the advantage. Possibly even a decisive one.

 

[USS Firefly]

But the Excelsior is more beatutiful than the Intrepid, that has to count to?

 

[T'Girl]

^ I feel the opposite, the Excelsior could be improved by making the engineering hull narrower, the dorsal as well (and make it the same color as the rest of the ship), removing to "hump" between the warp pylons, round off the warp pylon's "crook."

And shorten the warp nacelles by at least a third.

 

[Ithekro]

To why build newer ships: due to loses. Ship designers will still come up with new hull designs to fit new technologies and experiments with warp dynamics and other systems. They might work better than a refit vessel in terms of system integration, but the technology likely still works on an older ship after they can work out how to plug in the new tech.

It might be easier to build a new ship than rebuild an old one due to compatibility issues.

However Starfleet does rebuilt ships to front line service condition. USS Enterprise is the primary example multiple times over the centuries. Take the NX-class ship and rebuild it with more weapons, more plating, and better coils to get her speed up past warp 5. Then potentially add a secondary hull with a new warp engine. Or Take the Constitution-class and reconstruct her entirely so she is practically a new ship. Or take the Galaxy-class and add a third nacelle and heavy weapons systems.

A reason to build Excelsiors in the first place would probably be that they were running out of the old Constitutions. It had been at least 40 years since Enterprise was built, and we saw or heard about the lose of at least four Starships of that class. It is possible that more of the class was lost over the decades of hard service. The Excelsior was larger with a new drive system and intended to replace the aging Constitutions. It also could have been simply they were running out of Constitutions.

The Excelsiors seem to be fairly resilient given that so many were still around and capable during the Dominion War. The Mirandas were numerous but not quite as resilient given how many were being destroyed in combat during said war. The Excelsiors seems to be able to take punishment better than some of the newer starships. That might have been due to the design ideology of the 2280s and the Cold War with the Klingons dictating the need for a stronger hull or more shield redundancy than is normal for starships of later eras. Perhaps as a reaction to what happened to the Constitutions, which also seemed to be able to take a beating that most 24th century starships would crumble under.

As for the likes of the Ambassador and Galaxy-class ships, those are supposedly long range explorers that would normally operate far from Federation bases (or at least not intentional go back to a Starbase for resupply often) that need to be larger to accommodate not only the provisions and fuel for maybe a decade long exploration mission, but also all the possible sensor arrays and labs, and entertainment facilities needed to keep the mission going and the crew happy. An Excelsior might not be large enough for that, though I imagine she could be fitted out for a 23rd century style Five Year Mission easily.

 

[Jeffe525]

Given the yields of Star Trek weapons, I think just about any ship is capable of bringing down any other under the right circumstances with the right tactics. I think the odds would be on the Intepid's side, but the outcome is by no means a foregone conclusion based on technology alone.

This. And done.