Could modern Excelsior class beat an Intrepid in combat?
- Thread starter Xerxes1979
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Plain and simple... no.
Defiant has only 4 pulse phaser ports on the dead front, and one phaser strip on the top (I haven't seen others - although the deflector might have one?), and both front/aft torpedo launchers.
It's not about the amount of weapons, it's the power rating of the ship.
Defiant was very powerful given it's size, but that doesn't mean it was more powerful for example than Voyager or Galaxy classes... it just means that SF made a small ship which was on an equal footing with most of it's 'big boys' - translation... up until that point, SF's smaller ships were probably not equally on par with larger ones - except perhaps in few cases (the Miranda class for example in Kirk's era demonstrated to be tactically more or less identical to the Constitution in TWoK movie).
Furthermore, the Excelsior has adequate phaser coverage for it's hull... but so does Voyager (which in turn has phaser strips which could provide better coverage and fire rate compared to the ball emitters, even if the latter have been upgraded to spew out output same amounts of power like the ones on new ships).
And as an aside, can we please stop with the claims that an upgraded Excelsior is an equal match for a Defiant class? They might be, I'll admit, but we've got no way of knowing. The battle in 'Paradise Lost' proves nothing, as neither crew were willing to use lethal force. For all we know, if the Defiant had let rip with it's pulse phasers at full power, maximum efficiency, it would have ripped through the Lakota's shields in seconds.
The battle in 'Paradise Lost' supplements evidence that both the Defiant and Lakota were on par with each other.
The ships may have held off on the torpedoes to finish each other, but there's no evidence suggesting that either weren't using maximum phaser power ... and on-screen evidence suggests usage of maxed out Phasers (damage taken by both ships in-battle certainly suggests this).
To that end, the Lakota might have won the battle if the ablative hull armor was not present on the Defiant - which might suggest that the ship itself wouldn't be able to match larger sister ships like the upgraded Lakota without it - however, we know the armor is nothing but a limited protection that offers very minute time in a firefight, and as such we don't know how much it translates into actual benefits time-wise... it might simply be there to offer greater protection for key systems.
^Good point. I must admit though that I find it surprising that the Defiant's pulse phasers, which on there very first use rip through a Jem'hadar attack ship's shields and destroy it totally in a single salvo, are nowhere near as effective against the Lakota. Perhaps they're on nerf setting.
Voyager would obviously win every time because Janeway has the Mary Sue Syndrome on her side. Between an ordinary Intrepid vs Excelsior though, I'd expect the refit Excelsior class to trump a smaller science vessel.
the intrepid-class is only about 50 meters longer than the constitution....about 340 meters
the defiant is about a 100 meters....so about 1/4 the size of the intrepid
and yet had roughly about the same power usage....
Case in point:
SF focused on making smaller classes of ships on par with their bigger ones... and since the Defiant lacks all of the 'luxuries' of larger vessels (being a dedicated "warship"), having extra power to match shields and weapons of larger ships makes sense. The 'warship' label can also be interpreted in ways that it's power levels in tactical aspects are on par with it's large sister ships... but other systems necessary for long term exploration simply aren't there.
Voyager was similar in that regard. Only 2 holodecks, 1 mess hall, and that's pretty much it for 'recreational activities'.
It stands to reason that Voyager would be able to get away with having such a small number of recreational facilities in order to have more power to match ships like the Galaxy class - although, Voyager can also be in deep space for far longer than the Defiant can (especially for exploratory purposes) due to it's size, sensor advantage and ability to hold larger amount of supplies - however, given their technology, any SF ships with replicators and transporters is able to be completely self-sufficient in deep space for LONG periods of time (but the galaxy class for example can hold larger amount of torpedoes and supplies before they'd have to restock - depending on circumstances of course).
As for the Defiant's effectiveness on Jem'Hadaar bugs...
Well, one has to keep in mind that the Defiant was designed to 'fight and defeat the Borg'.
Ok, so it might not have fared THAT good against the cube in FC, however, these alterations to weapons tech probably made the difference against the Jem'Hadaar bug ships at the start... who had a distinct advantage over SF ships initially (the Oddysey) because the Dominion was aware of them and gathered necessary intelligence so their weapons would in turn would penetrate their shields.
The bug ships could be very weak by comparison. They only seemed powerful because of their adaptation to SF shields and weapons (which was countered) - and it's probably one of the reasons why the Defiants pulse phasers didn't pulverize the Lakota, because the comparison is simply invalid. The Lakota also had same weapons modifications that the Defiant, Sovereign and Intrepid class ships had from the get go which would allow it to fight the Dominion with same success - maybe even better success because larger ships have a lot more phaser coverage, so compared to the Defiant, they can fire equal powerful bursts in practically all directions, whereas the Defiant is limited in that regard (however, it's also smaller - which makes it easier to build faster, and equally powerful)
SF focused on making smaller classes of ships on par with their bigger ones... and since the Defiant lacks all of the 'luxuries' of larger vessels (being a dedicated "warship"), having extra power to match shields and weapons of larger ships makes sense. The 'warship' label can also be interpreted in ways that it's power levels in tactical aspects are on par with it's large sister ships... but other systems necessary for long term exploration simply aren't there.
Voyager was similar in that regard. Only 2 holodecks, 1 mess hall, and that's pretty much it for 'recreational activities'.
It stands to reason that Voyager would be able to get away with having such a small number of recreational facilities in order to have more power to match ships like the Galaxy class - although, Voyager can also be in deep space for far longer than the Defiant can (especially for exploratory purposes) due to it's size, sensor advantage and ability to hold larger amount of supplies - however, given their technology, any SF ships with replicators and transporters is able to be completely self-sufficient in deep space for LONG periods of time (but the galaxy class for example can hold larger amount of torpedoes and supplies before they'd have to restock - depending on circumstances of course).
As for the Defiant's effectiveness on Jem'Hadaar bugs...
Well, one has to keep in mind that the Defiant was designed to 'fight and defeat the Borg'.
Ok, so it might not have fared THAT good against the cube in FC, however, these alterations to weapons tech probably made the difference against the Jem'Hadaar bug ships at the start... who had a distinct advantage over SF ships initially (the Oddysey) because the Dominion was aware of them and gathered necessary intelligence so their weapons would in turn would penetrate their shields.
The bug ships could be very weak by comparison. They only seemed powerful because of their adaptation to SF shields and weapons (which was countered) - and it's probably one of the reasons why the Defiants pulse phasers didn't pulverize the Lakota, because the comparison is simply invalid. The Lakota also had same weapons modifications that the Defiant, Sovereign and Intrepid class ships had from the get go which would allow it to fight the Dominion with same success - maybe even better success because larger ships have a lot more phaser coverage, so compared to the Defiant, they can fire equal powerful bursts in practically all directions, whereas the Defiant is limited in that regard (however, it's also smaller - which makes it easier to build faster, and equally powerful)
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My instincts tell me to generally stay away from starship vs. threads these days. 
But I did want to point something out:
There's no question, given what we saw in VOY, that the Intrepid is an effective combatant when pressed, and it's probably tactically superior to most like-sized science-oriented vessels or scouts (the Nova-class, for example), partly owing to being newer, and simply well designed. But the Defiant was purpose-built for combat and nothing else; Voyager, clearly, was not. The Defiant sacrificed creature comforts, eschewed dedicated scientific facilities altogether, and scraped by with only the bare minimum for basic systems; Voyager, clearly, did not. For its size, the Intrepid is only minimally less well-equipped, proportionally, than the Galaxy - in terms of both crew comfort levels and science capabilities.
But I did want to point something out:Voyager was in no way similar to the Defiant in terms of being "stripped down" to focus on basics and tactical systems. Yes, it only has two holodecks, but it still has those two, plus a gym. Officer's quarters were barely any smaller than those on the Ent-D. The same is true of the mess hall when compared to ten-forward. Things like transporter rooms, the brig, cargo bays, sick bay... all the same size or perhaps just a little bit smaller when Intrepid is compared to Galaxy. Contrast this to Defiant - no holodecks, no gym, and all of the facilities mentioned above are comparatively tiny. Janeway's ready room is actually much LARGER than Picards. And, possibly most importantly: Sisko also says the ship has "no science labs" when describing it to his staff. Whereas we know Voyager has several (not counting to astrometrics lab, since it's not built until later... though come to think of it, the fact that they apparently had unused and/or non-critical space that they could just decide to make into a new lab reinforces my point).
There's no question, given what we saw in VOY, that the Intrepid is an effective combatant when pressed, and it's probably tactically superior to most like-sized science-oriented vessels or scouts (the Nova-class, for example), partly owing to being newer, and simply well designed. But the Defiant was purpose-built for combat and nothing else; Voyager, clearly, was not. The Defiant sacrificed creature comforts, eschewed dedicated scientific facilities altogether, and scraped by with only the bare minimum for basic systems; Voyager, clearly, did not. For its size, the Intrepid is only minimally less well-equipped, proportionally, than the Galaxy - in terms of both crew comfort levels and science capabilities.
So what?
Voyager was in effect much larger than the Defiant with more internal volume to spare.
Deck heights are more/less equal throughout the ships.
Voyager only had 150 crew members - hence why it can have roomier quarters (and it didn't seem it can hold more than that effectively).
Cargo bays and holodecks would be sized the same regardless of the ship's size (they are probably built as a standard).
So, compared to the Galaxy class, the Intrepids have minimal recreational facilities, but in effect could also be seen as a 'stripped down' version of larger ships.
The Defiant was deliberately made like it was due to it's size.
It HAD to have been stripped of everything else so they could cram such weapons/shields into it... while Voyager (given it's size) can accommodate for other systems so it can essentially perform the same like the Defiant in all areas, and then some (for exploratory purposes).
Large ships such as the Intrepids, Excelsiors, Nebula's and Galaxy class would in effect be better suited for deep space exploration.
As I said before, the Defiant was mentioned to be 'powerful for it's size' and specifically built for combat, but that doesn't mean it's more powerful than larger ships.
It just means it could pack near the same if not same amounts of raw power like large ships in terms of weapons.
On another note, compared to the Intrepid, the Defiant is relatively slow (albeit probably faster to build given it's size).
Keep in mind that SF during the Dominion War needed to replace some of their losses relatively quickly... and as such, if a small ship like the Defiant offers you same amount of raw power like larger ships and say less time to construct, then it's THAT you will want to construct for loss replacement in a hurry - not because it's 'more powerful than larger ships' but because it offers same in a smaller package.
Same analogy is for the Intrepid, though that thing is about 11 decks bigger than the Defiant and as such would need more time to make - but again, less time than a Galaxy class.
As I said, all those ships are likely on equal footing power-wise, it's just that larger ones can perform exploratory duties for longer periods of time from the get go due to larger capacity for storage of needed resources.
Voyager was in effect much larger than the Defiant with more internal volume to spare.
Deck heights are more/less equal throughout the ships.
Voyager only had 150 crew members - hence why it can have roomier quarters (and it didn't seem it can hold more than that effectively).
Cargo bays and holodecks would be sized the same regardless of the ship's size (they are probably built as a standard).
So, compared to the Galaxy class, the Intrepids have minimal recreational facilities, but in effect could also be seen as a 'stripped down' version of larger ships.
The Defiant was deliberately made like it was due to it's size.
It HAD to have been stripped of everything else so they could cram such weapons/shields into it... while Voyager (given it's size) can accommodate for other systems so it can essentially perform the same like the Defiant in all areas, and then some (for exploratory purposes).
Large ships such as the Intrepids, Excelsiors, Nebula's and Galaxy class would in effect be better suited for deep space exploration.
As I said before, the Defiant was mentioned to be 'powerful for it's size' and specifically built for combat, but that doesn't mean it's more powerful than larger ships.
It just means it could pack near the same if not same amounts of raw power like large ships in terms of weapons.
On another note, compared to the Intrepid, the Defiant is relatively slow (albeit probably faster to build given it's size).
Keep in mind that SF during the Dominion War needed to replace some of their losses relatively quickly... and as such, if a small ship like the Defiant offers you same amount of raw power like larger ships and say less time to construct, then it's THAT you will want to construct for loss replacement in a hurry - not because it's 'more powerful than larger ships' but because it offers same in a smaller package.
Same analogy is for the Intrepid, though that thing is about 11 decks bigger than the Defiant and as such would need more time to make - but again, less time than a Galaxy class.
As I said, all those ships are likely on equal footing power-wise, it's just that larger ones can perform exploratory duties for longer periods of time from the get go due to larger capacity for storage of needed resources.
So... I just provided a bunch of evidence that Voyager was not "stripped down" to a tight focus on tactical systems and survival, nearly to the exclusion of everything else, like the Defiant was. That's what.
Ok? What does this have to do with what I said? It was a larger ship, thus it had more room inside. Doesn't change the fact that it was quite clear on the show that the ship was nothing like the Defiant, internally (spacious halls and rooms, luxurious quarters, holodecks, a HUGE ready room, etc).
You're missing my point.
So having a crew of only 150 meant they had some extra space to play with. What did they use that space for? Ensuring that said crew would have really nice, huge rooms (they are almost as big as those on the Galaxy). That's not "stripped down", that's the good life.
When was this established?
No they wouldn't. Cargo bay size would fluctuate quite a bit depending on the size of the vessel and the purpose of the vessel. This is true of real ships today, and it would make no sense for Starfleet ships to not work the same way. And Voyager's holodecks are a bit smaller than those on the Ent-D, and are clearly of a different (probably newer) design.
It has recreational facilities AT ALL. That's part of the point.
Stripped down compared to larger ships? Sure. But only to a moderate degree, and not stripped down to bare bones basics like the Defiant was, which is the only point I was making. Any lack of amenities on Voyager can be directly attributed to its size. Again, proportionally, the differences between the Intrepid and Galaxy in terms of crew comfort and scientific facilities is quite minimal. Speaking of scientific facilities, that's a very important part of this point: Defiant has none. Because all of its internal volume is devoted to tactical systems and basic survival.
Yes, the Defiant is smaller. But that's irrelevant to my point. The Intrepid was clearly not designed with a tight, exclusionary focus on combat and survivability, and the Defiant was. The two classes have nothing in common in terms of the considerations that drove the internal design and layout. In that regard, Intrepid is basically a scaled down Galaxy. I'm also not saying that for a ship to be combat-focused, it must be stripped down in EXACTLY the same way as the Defiant-class. But the Intrepid is barely stripped down at all.
As I already mentioned, the Defiant's 'stripped down' aspect is mainly due to it's size.
I would surmise that in order to have all that energy channeled to produce an equally powerful effect of those found on larger ships, certain things would need to be sacrificed so that power relays or technology relevant to producing/channeling that much energy is doable in the first place - ergo, you end up with a more compact design.
Voyager can afford to have a recreational facility or two and powerful weapons at the same time exactly because of it's size.
Compactness is not a necessity in this case because there's more room to go around.
Point remains though, that Voyager only has 1 gym (if that at all - the gym reference could have been made to meant as a holodeck instead) and that's pretty much it - whereas the Galaxy class probably has, what... several? And the latter also has numerous other places for recreation the Intrepid lacks (larger number of holodecks, transporter rooms, more cargo bays...).
Between the Intrepid and Galaxy class, the former very much seems 'stripped down' (in order to match Galaxy in the tactical department, and outclass it in maximum cruise Warp speed) - but it has enough to provide 'some' creature comforts.
The term is relative (depending on the design/size/capabilities).
Comparing Voyager and Galaxy class though, cargo bay sizes seem to be pretty much the same (along with holodecks).
And as for other ship classes, we haven't seen enough of their internal layouts to see any changes in cargo bay sizes.
The only distinct difference between the two classes is evident for the shuttlebay - and even that was more or less inconsistent between the VFX departments (well, for voyager at least).
I would surmise the size of the cargo-bays would be the same ship to ship, but that the amount would be lower or higher depending on the ship's internal space (and overall size).
Oh and, as for when it may have been established that Voyager cannot necessarily carry more than 150 crew members effectively:
Season 7... when the 200 Klingons came on-board temporarily.
Everyone on the ship (sans the captain most likely) had to double up in quarters.
Actually, I would say that Voyager might be able to house about 180 or 200 people max... but more, not without some serious micromanaging and stacking several crewmembers into same quarters.
The Galaxy class by comparison had 1100 people on board at all times - it's maximum capacity was far larger than that though if I'm not mistaken.
Voyager can carry a much smaller crew amount, which probably saves power on life-support systems at the same time.
The Defiant carried around 48 people - which is even lower than Voyager.
I would surmise that in order to have all that energy channeled to produce an equally powerful effect of those found on larger ships, certain things would need to be sacrificed so that power relays or technology relevant to producing/channeling that much energy is doable in the first place - ergo, you end up with a more compact design.
Voyager can afford to have a recreational facility or two and powerful weapons at the same time exactly because of it's size.
Compactness is not a necessity in this case because there's more room to go around.
Point remains though, that Voyager only has 1 gym (if that at all - the gym reference could have been made to meant as a holodeck instead) and that's pretty much it - whereas the Galaxy class probably has, what... several? And the latter also has numerous other places for recreation the Intrepid lacks (larger number of holodecks, transporter rooms, more cargo bays...).
Between the Intrepid and Galaxy class, the former very much seems 'stripped down' (in order to match Galaxy in the tactical department, and outclass it in maximum cruise Warp speed) - but it has enough to provide 'some' creature comforts.
The term is relative (depending on the design/size/capabilities).
Comparing Voyager and Galaxy class though, cargo bay sizes seem to be pretty much the same (along with holodecks).
And as for other ship classes, we haven't seen enough of their internal layouts to see any changes in cargo bay sizes.
The only distinct difference between the two classes is evident for the shuttlebay - and even that was more or less inconsistent between the VFX departments (well, for voyager at least).
I would surmise the size of the cargo-bays would be the same ship to ship, but that the amount would be lower or higher depending on the ship's internal space (and overall size).
Oh and, as for when it may have been established that Voyager cannot necessarily carry more than 150 crew members effectively:
Season 7... when the 200 Klingons came on-board temporarily.
Everyone on the ship (sans the captain most likely) had to double up in quarters.
Actually, I would say that Voyager might be able to house about 180 or 200 people max... but more, not without some serious micromanaging and stacking several crewmembers into same quarters.
The Galaxy class by comparison had 1100 people on board at all times - it's maximum capacity was far larger than that though if I'm not mistaken.
Voyager can carry a much smaller crew amount, which probably saves power on life-support systems at the same time.
The Defiant carried around 48 people - which is even lower than Voyager.
All the comments above about size of engines and phaser power are wrong. DS9 showed us that the ship's phasers are powered by expendable power cells, not by the warp drive (with the exception of TMP, where it was treated as somewhat of a gimmicky experimental new idea which promptly failed them). Hence Scotty getting one phaser bank recharged in "The Doomsday Machine". We also see phaser power cells being loaded up in STXI.
I think there was reference to an "evacuation limit" of 15,000 - presumably the maximum number of 'standard' humanoids that could be sustained by the life-support system rather than how many could actually be crammed inside given how massive the galaxy-class actually is.
When you think that a nimitz-class carrier carries 6,000 crew just during normal operations and presumably double that if it were ever used for an evacuation, 15,000 evacuees on a galaxy-class seems relatively small.
When you think that a nimitz-class carrier carries 6,000 crew just during normal operations and presumably double that if it were ever used for an evacuation, 15,000 evacuees on a galaxy-class seems relatively small.
Ah, but the DS9 episode 'The Defiant' has Kira tell Tom Riker that the warp plasma conduit is run through the primary phaser coupling, almost doubling the output.
The function of the power cells ('Favour The Bold') is not explained. Perhaps they act to protect the phaser systems from extreme power surges, which is why on a ship as overpowered as the Defiant they have such a short life?
