The kicker is, he did got to Yellow alert, which entailed raising "forcefields and screens". Did those do ANYTHING??? Apparently not.....
Could Kirk have been punished for not raising shields in TWOK?
- Thread starter Captain Worf
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To be sure, as per Saavik, that entailed "energizing defense fields", whatever those are.
"Forcefields and screens" were words used to describe shields in ST:TMP, and abandoned thereafter. "Defense fields" was a unique expression for ST2:TWoK; whether it meant shields or not is unclear, because there was a long delay between Saavik's comment/command and Joachim's observation that Kirk's ship was trying to raise shields. Perhaps the trainee crew simply was really slow at raising shields?
Or possibly the trick is in "energizing". Perhaps that means some sort of preheating, something that's done in preparation for raising? Then the "fields" there could be the same "forcefields" that in ST:TMP protected the ship in the familiar shield fashion, but they couldn't be raised until they had been energized, and a training ship would keep them de-energized normally, while no "operational" starship would.
Of course, when Saavik says she's energizing the defense fields (or telling one of her minions to do so), we next see a display of intruder control measures flare up. Perhaps these forcefields she's talking about are the ones used for containing intruders inside the ship, for defending against boarding?
In the greater context, yellow alert has not resulted in shields going up in other Trek contexts - not unless the CO himself has further specified that shields ought to be raised, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Wrongo. Joachim's only observation on the subject is "They still haven't raised their shields," not that they're trying to.
Just watched the entire scene. Khan takes full advantage of the fact that Kirk wouldn't raise shields while coming into contact with Reliant. In fact he gloats about it "We're all just one big happy fleet". As stated earlier "Defense screens and forcefields" were earlier terms for "shields" but in this case were clearly not shields as Kirk orders them raised just before Reliant lets loose with her first barrage. So it is clear that the two things are different from each other. I'm assuming the former has to do with preventing scanning. Also I got an answer to my earlier photon torpedo question, Khan did use them on his secondary assault. So again I think the answer to the original posters question is no Kirk would not have been or could be punished for not raising shields.
Ah, was misled by Chakoteya's otherwise generally accurate transcripts. After Khan says "Raise ours!", somebody comments "Their shields are going up", and this is attributed to Joachim in the transcripts. But I guess it's Spock or Sulu who says it, in reference to the shields of the Reliant.
Timo Saloniemi
I think you are correct about showing Kirk "rusty". However, I think if it was not a Federation starship Reliant, thus Khan's statement:"We are one, big happy fleet!", Kirk would have raised shields immediately upon encountering.
If Khan had hijacked a non-federation Starfleet Starship instead of the Reliant, then Kirk(any starfleet captain) would have immediately raised shields. I had always thought had Khan hijacked a Klingon K't'inga class battle cruiser(as we first saw in TMP), then Kirk would have gone to red alert immediately...plus that would have been an extremely fascinating space battle in the remainder of WOK.
^ Agreed. Khan knew exactly what he was doing in that confrontation. Remember too that Khan read Starfleet tech manuals and other materials in "Space Seed" so he's familiar at least to a certain extent with how Starfleet procedures are. I doubt that they would have been updated that much.
Kirk admits to being caught with his bridges down...he seems embarrassed and probably a little pissed off about it but in no way could he have anticipated Khan being in command of that ship. I think we've established that he acted within established parameters.
For all we know, Kirk's call for yellow alert WAS the procedure that Starfleet Regulation General Order Twelve, which Saavik started to quote, called for.
In which case, I doubt Starfleet would be eager to punish an officer for following regulations.
In which case, I doubt Starfleet would be eager to punish an officer for following regulations.
Damn I spelled it that badly? LOL Britches. Thanks lol.
I think that Kirk's decision not to raise shields at the first failed communication attempt can be debated either way.
The thing I've always thought was inexcusable, though, was that Kirk did not order shields to be raised the moment Spock reported that the Reliant was doing so. Kirk waited another several seconds until Spock reported Reliant was locking phasers before giving the order.
As soon as Reliant's shields started going up, there was more than enough reason to suspect something was amiss. Not raising shields at that point was a major, major tactical error. Had Kirk given that shield-raising order just five seconds earlier, the shields could have been up by the time Reliant fired. As it was, they were caught with their "britches down."
The thing I've always thought was inexcusable, though, was that Kirk did not order shields to be raised the moment Spock reported that the Reliant was doing so. Kirk waited another several seconds until Spock reported Reliant was locking phasers before giving the order.
As soon as Reliant's shields started going up, there was more than enough reason to suspect something was amiss. Not raising shields at that point was a major, major tactical error. Had Kirk given that shield-raising order just five seconds earlier, the shields could have been up by the time Reliant fired. As it was, they were caught with their "britches down."
You know, an interesting difference between TOS and later Trek incarnations is the amount of initiative other bridge officers take in doing things without being ordered. In TOS, no officer would dream of raising the shields without the Captain's (or first officer's) orders. Contrast this to Voyager. When stuff starts happening, everyone across the bridge just starts... doing stuff, and calling out what they're doing as it happens. 'Taking evasive maneuvers!' 'I'm attempting to initiate an Imaginary Nonsense Pulse in order to override their sensors!' 'Rerouting power from the shuttlecraft bay to photon torpedoes!', et cetera.
I think it's mostly due to the move by later series to an increasingly ensemble-based cast. That's good for the characters and their actors, because it makes them look competent or at least capable for the most part, but it sort of neuters the captain a little bit. Sometimes you'd feel that it wouldn't have even mattered if Janeway were on the bridge. Something you never saw, of course, was someone taking that initiative (acting without explicit orders) and having a negative result. If someone chose to initiate an Imaginary Nonsense Pulse without being commanded to, and it backfired somehow, you'd imagine there would be a severe dressing-down after the fact.
Anyway, just thought that was interesting.
I think it's mostly due to the move by later series to an increasingly ensemble-based cast. That's good for the characters and their actors, because it makes them look competent or at least capable for the most part, but it sort of neuters the captain a little bit. Sometimes you'd feel that it wouldn't have even mattered if Janeway were on the bridge. Something you never saw, of course, was someone taking that initiative (acting without explicit orders) and having a negative result. If someone chose to initiate an Imaginary Nonsense Pulse without being commanded to, and it backfired somehow, you'd imagine there would be a severe dressing-down after the fact.
Anyway, just thought that was interesting.
^ An interesting thought. I think it happens more mostly from the TOS movie crew who have served with Kirk long enough that it probably gives them insight into anticipating his orders.
In the "real military", we run drills for common scenarios and have things called "immediate actions". This is something that we do automatically in certain emergency situations without any orders to do so. It makes sense to me that Starfleet bridge officers by the 24th century might have enough training that raising shields in some circumstances would be their so-called "immediate action".
There's a cut back to Reliant in between those two shots. It's possible there wasn't more than an instant's gap between Spock's report and Kirk's response in "reality."
I seem to remember some times in TOS when the first indication something had gone wrong was that the ship raised the shields by itself because the computer detected something coming.
@David: I´m not totally sure about TOS, but I´m sure that by TNG the ship sometimes raises the shields by itself and goes to red alert.
I´d like to know how regulations are in the real military, of course we haven´t invented shields yet but:
If the US Military encounters one of its own ships (planned or unplanned) and for some reason there´s no communication possible (or just no answer)...what are the standard procedures for that?
I´d like to know how regulations are in the real military, of course we haven´t invented shields yet but:
If the US Military encounters one of its own ships (planned or unplanned) and for some reason there´s no communication possible (or just no answer)...what are the standard procedures for that?
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