Coul Kirk have been Captain of the Enterprise in 2258

[Pauln6]

Kirk's biography in The Making of Star Trek stated that he was 34 years old and had commanded the Enterprise for "more than four years." It was also the original source of the claim that he was the youngest starship captain ever

Yeah I might be mis-remembering the stuff about Decker - the Phase II solits only state that he was in his thirties.

Kirk states his age at 34 in season 2 I think. and it's generally accepted that the 5-year mission came to an end in 2270 so he would be 37 by the end of the 5 year mission and presumably 32 at the start. Thus with the re-fit he might have been as young as 30 when he took over the Enterprise. That's still pretty young.

I really thought Riker referred to the fact that he was still younger than Kirk was when talking about his career path with his Dad or Troi. I can't be bothered going back to check.

 

[Christopher]

Kirk states his age at 34 in season 2 I think.

In "The Deadly Years."

and it's generally accepted that the 5-year mission came to an end in 2270...

It's not just generally accepted, it's canonical fact, stated in Voyager: "Q2."

Thus with the re-fit he might have been as young as 30 when he took over the Enterprise.

That's consistent with the Making of ST biography. Vonda McIntyre had him take command at 29 in the novel Enterprise: The First Adventure, probably based on TMoST's data points that he'd been captain for "more than four years" at the age of 34.

I really thought Riker referred to the fact that he was still younger than Kirk was when talking about his career path with his Dad or Troi. I can't be bothered going back to check.

I really don't think so. TNG usually steered clear of that kind of continuity porn, preferring to establish its own distinct identity. References to Kirk in onscreen TNG are rare. He was alluded to in "The Naked Now" and of course in "Unification," and then there's obviously Generations, and Riker orders an evasive maneuver named for Kirk in Nemesis. But I just don't see the TNG writers calling attention to any Riker-Kirk parallels -- it's a little too on the nose, something I think they'd make a point of avoiding so as not to make Riker seem like a copy of Kirk. Like I said, maybe you're remembering something from a book or comic.

Riker's father appeared only in "The Icarus Factor," and the name "Kirk" does not appear anywhere in that episode's script; I just checked.

 

[Pauln6]

Kirk states his age at 34 in season 2 I think.

In "The Deadly Years."

and it's generally accepted that the 5-year mission came to an end in 2270...

It's not just generally accepted, it's canonical fact, stated in Voyager: "Q2."

Thus with the re-fit he might have been as young as 30 when he took over the Enterprise.

That's consistent with the Making of ST biography. Vonda McIntyre had him take command at 29 in the novel Enterprise: The First Adventure, probably based on TMoST's data points that he'd been captain for "more than four years" at the age of 34.

I really thought Riker referred to the fact that he was still younger than Kirk was when talking about his career path with his Dad or Troi. I can't be bothered going back to check.

I really don't think so. TNG usually steered clear of that kind of continuity porn, preferring to establish its own distinct identity. References to Kirk in onscreen TNG are rare. He was alluded to in "The Naked Now" and of course in "Unification," and then there's obviously Generations, and Riker orders an evasive maneuver named for Kirk in Nemesis. But I just don't see the TNG writers calling attention to any Riker-Kirk parallels -- it's a little too on the nose, something I think they'd make a point of avoiding so as not to make Riker seem like a copy of Kirk. Like I said, maybe you're remembering something from a book or comic.

Riker's father appeared only in "The Icarus Factor," and the name "Kirk" does not appear anywhere in that episode's script; I just checked.

Thanks! I should have known that you'd recall all the references. I suppose the upshot is that Kirk wouldn't have been captain of the Enterprise in 2258 in the prime universe?

 

[Warped9]

Now in the new movie when Nimoy Spock runs into Pine Kirk in 2258 of the alternate timeline he's suprised that Kirk isn't the Enterprise's captain, now this got me to thinking.

1) the only soild facts about Pike's captaincy we ever got were he was Captain of the Enterprise in 2254

2) Spock served with Pike for 11 years, but doesn't say if all 11 years were on the Enterprise.

3) In The Cage it seems Pike has been Captain of the Enterprise for awhile.

4) In the original (or at least what I think is the original) into to Where No Man Has Gone Before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Ym...D5B67865&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=48) Kirk seems to have been captain of the Enterprise for a while.

So could Kirk have taken command of the Enterprise sometime around 2258 in The prime timeline where TOS takes place.

P.S. Can we please not turn this into a debate about the new movie I just want to know if Kirk may have been captain of the Enterprise longer than we thought or not.

STXI has zilch to do with TOS but some familiar names. Don't give yourself a migraine for nothing.

 

[Christopher]

I suppose the upshot is that Kirk wouldn't have been captain of the Enterprise in 2258 in the prime universe?

I'd call that a near-certainty, for the reasons discussed earlier in the thread.

 

[Red Ranger]

I've always thought that the way they presented both Pike and Kirk that each one had been in command of the Enterprise for at least a short while. In other words, there isn't any dialogue establishing each had just assumed command of the ship, the way it's explicitly stated in TNG's premiere, when Picard says he's becoming acquainted with his "new command."

So it's just conjecture how long each captain had been in charge. While Spock did say he served with Pike for 11 years, again, he doesn't explictly say, "I served with Pike for 11 years on the Enterprise." I like to think that in the original continuity, Spock and Pike served on at least one other ship together in different capacities. I've always thought that at that time, Pike was a first officer on a previous ship, training to take over the center seat, and Spock as an up-and-coming science officer, training to become a chief science officer, as we saw him in The Cage.

So my own thought is that Pike was in command at least for a couple of years on The Cage, and I feel Kirk had also been in command at least a year in Where No Man Has Gone Before.

I always wished they had established that Kirk had been Pike's first officer at least a year before becoming c.o., similar to what they did in the new movie. After all, we have a hint that Kirk and Pike know each other when Kirk calls him "Chris," in The Menagerie, which is more likely if he had a past relationship with Pike. And the other hint is from Mirror, Mirror, where the Mirror-Kirk is said to have assassinated Mirror-Pike to get command of that Enterprise. That doesn't exactly mean he was Pike's first officer -- he might have been rewarded by the Empire for taking out Pike -- but it's a strong hint.

Red Ranger

 

[Christopher]

^Except that Kirk says in "The Menagerie" that he only met Pike when the latter got promoted to Fleet Captain -- presumably at the change-of-command ceremony when Kirk took over the Enterprise. If they spent a fair amount of time talking and getting acquainted that day, it's reasonable that Pike would've said "Call me Chris" to Kirk at some point.

 

[Captain Robert April]

The most popular theory going around these days seems to be that Pike was April's first officer (established in DC's comic series, picked up by John Byrne in his "Crew" miniseries for IDW) and took over command of the Enterprise from April, following what was essentially a five year shakedown cruise.

 

[Timo]

Except that Kirk says in "The Menagerie" that he only met Pike when the latter got promoted to Fleet Captain -- presumably at the change-of-command ceremony when Kirk took over the Enterprise.

To be exact, Kirk doesn't say "only". He might perfectly well mean he first met Pike in that promotion ceremony, and later had a long and fruitful friendship, an on-and-off love affair, an icy professional relationship, or no contact whatsoever.

Also, we have no canonical idea whether Pike relinquished the ship before, at, or after his promotion to Fleet Captain. For all we know, he held that rank in "The Cage" already. Or then Pike was a lowly Lieutenant there, and Kirk actually outranked him for most of his career, even reaching (Fleet) Captain before Pike.

So it should be possible for Kirk to work as Pike's XO - or even vice versa.

The most popular theory going around these days seems to be that Pike was April's first officer (established in DC's comic series, picked up by John Byrne in his "Crew" miniseries for IDW) and took over command of the Enterprise from April, following what was essentially a five year shakedown cruise.

Five years of shakedown? Must have been lots of faults in the original design...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

The original backstory for Kirk was that he commanded a destroyer before getting command of the Enterprise (ref: The Making of Star Trek).

 

[Pauln6]

Trek has never been very good with its dates. In TWOK Kirk claims that he hasn't seen Khan in 15 years when it's nearer 20, and it TSFS, Morrow claims that the Enterprise is 20 when she must be at least 30. Even taking into account those possible errors, I think there is too much anecdotal evidence to suggest that Kirk's career advancement was fast, but not as fast as Trek XI i.e. realistically fast rather than laughably fast.

It is true that he could have been captain of a different ship on a less prestigious mission that didn't warrant a mention in TMP prior to taking over the Enterprise but there isn't any on screen evidence to support that - it may be that he took over from his captain for a short while? My take is that When Spock sees Kirk in XI, it's a reflex reaction, thinking out loud, processing his situation, and to help viewers who aren't fans of the original series.

I had a quick glance at the chronology on ex-astris-scientia.org - it mentions that Kirk sees Areel Shaw in 2263 prior to Court Martial. It could mean that he was mobile and not overseeing the refit at that stage and I don't think she congratulates him on his promotion so maybe he was already a captain when he last saw her.

 

[Christopher]

Trek has never been very good with its dates. In TWOK Kirk claims that he hasn't seen Khan in 15 years when it's nearer 20, and it TSFS, Morrow claims that the Enterprise is 20 when she must be at least 30.

In TWOK's defense, the calendar dates of TOS and TWOK had not yet been decided on at that point. The notion that TWOK took place 18 years after "Space Seed" was a creation of The Star Trek Chronology, which was published 11 years after TWOK came out. So the "15 years" reference was not an error on the part of the filmmakers; at the time, there was nothing wrong with it. The inconsistency was introduced retroactively by the Chrono's authors, for reasons which remain unclear to this day.

 

[Mr. Crane]

Well, perhaps they would have promoted Lieutenant Kirk to captain of the Enterprise if, during the Farragut disaster, he had done something extraordinary to save the surviving crew of the Farragut following the attack - sure, he claims he freezed up, but maybe he did something afterwards that really made his command abilities shine, if the command crew had been killed and he took command...

...just a thought. The idea that he was Captain of the Enterprise already in 2258 would go against what we saw in novels and comics re: his backstory, but I don't think there is anything on screen to invalidate the idea.

His comment in TMP referring to "five years out there, dealing with unknowns" could just refer to his celebrated five-year deep space charting mission, but he may have served several shorter missions aboard the Enterprise prior to the five-year mission...

Just an opinion.

 

[Mr. Crane]

The original backstory for Kirk was that he commanded a destroyer before getting command of the Enterprise (ref: The Making of Star Trek).

...Yes, I always thought that too. Kirk had an air of command experience in WNMHGB that made me think the Enterprise wasn't his first command experience, or that he had commanded it for several years already. In the non-canon novel "Enterprise: The First Adventure", that previous command is called the "Lydia Sutherland", if I recall.

 

[Mr. Crane]

Because many Trek fans are very protective of the continuity of the universe and wouldn't have accepted a full-on reboot as legitimate. Trek is kind of unusual among genre franchises in that all its different film and TV incarnations have purported to be a single continuity. It isn't like Batman or Spider-Man where the comics, films, and TV shows are all separate realities. The fanbase has gotten used to the idea that Trek is Trek, that it's all one universe. So the filmmakers chose an approach that would let them split the difference between doing something new and continuing what came before.

Yes, I know why they did their half-arsed version of a reboot but I don't know why they didn't have the guts to do a full reboot. It's not like Chris Nolan had Alfred coming back in time from Batman Forever to preserve the Batman movie continuity in Batman Begins.

...Or Adam West!

 

[sariel2005]

According to the TAS episode Yesteryear Spock is around 37 years old since he travels back in time 30 Vulcan years to save his younger self at age seven.
it appears to be set in the fifth year of the five year mission most likely in 2269


Spock also states he served with Pike for around eleven years and four months in The Menagerie.

if Spock was born in 2232 and then entered the academy in 2249 (assuming an age of 17) he would graduate in 2253 if he served with Pike for eleven years then this would mean that he finished serving with Pike in 2264 or 2265 and this would imply that Kirk could not have gained Captaincy before then.

This does of course all hang on the assuption that Vulcan and Earth years are similar. (and off hand I cannot recall any comparisons either way.)

 

[Christopher]

Well, it's pretty much certain now that Vulcan is 40 Eridani, because ENT: "Home" placed it 16 light-years from Earth, which is the distance of 40 Eri. And a planet in the middle of the habitable zone of 40 Eri A would have a year length of roughly 200 days, give or take. So a Vulcan year should be much shorter than an Earth year. Except that by that reckoning, "30 Vulcan years past" would work out to about 2253, making Spock a preadolescent child only one year before "The Cage." So that clearly doesn't add up.

Generally I find that numbers in Star Trek are best ignored, or at least not taken too seriously.

 

[Pauln6]

The original backstory for Kirk was that he commanded a destroyer before getting command of the Enterprise (ref: The Making of Star Trek).

...Yes, I always thought that too. Kirk had an air of command experience in WNMHGB that made me think the Enterprise wasn't his first command experience, or that he had commanded it for several years already. In the non-canon novel "Enterprise: The First Adventure", that previous command is called the "Lydia Sutherland", if I recall.

Well, first officers get to command the ship too, as do other junior officers - if nobody sat in command until they were promoted to captain, there would be a lot of very green captains out there. We tend to see the Captain and first officer working together for the sake of the narrative but it's more likely that they would often be on separate shifts.

 

[Christopher]

^The Making of Star Trek said that Kirk's first command was the equivalent of a destroyer-class vessel. By naval precedent, that's a kind of ship that would be commanded by an officer of commander rank, maybe even lieutenant commander. Although onscreen ST hasn't followed that precedent, having ships of all sizes commanded by full captains (the one exception being the Defiant, commanded first by Commander Sisko, then by Commander Worf and sometimes Commander Dax).