cool that there are so many TMP threads

[trevanian]

Some actors have narrow feature windows (esp actresses, like the short era where Penelope Ann Whashername was cast in several features.) At that time, Collins was in that window, following up TMP with a flick starring him alongside Shirley Mclaine and James Coburn and Susan Sarandon.

It's kind of crazy debating this anyway, since nobody was sure Decker was even going to be in P2, once they started considering he should be offed or metamorphosed at the end of INTHYIMAGE.

 

[The Old Mixer]

That doesn't sound too likely, because the doors opening & closing would have been in even the earliest assemblies, preVFX, so those would have had the most time for sounds to be assembled & developed.

Go look it up for yourself, and/or take it up with Robert Wise. Also note the differences in that area between the theatrical edition and the DE. Christopher seems familiar with the subject, so I'm sure he would have corrected me if I'd been wrong.

In the article(s) that I read, the lack of ambient sounds was credited with having unintentionally contributed to the film's "cold" feeling.

 

[Melakon]

Has any film since been referred to as a "motion picture" as part of its title?

The most notorious is likely Hamburger: The Motion Picture.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091165/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_3

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Has any film since been referred to as a "motion picture" as part of its title? That seems odd that they felt the need to point that out, by 1979 nobody really needed to be told that it was a talkie or in color either.

Ironically, this is something Stephen Collins pointed out as the picture was being filmed. He's said since that he thought people were trying too hard to make Star Trek sound like a movie instead of just letting things fall into place.

I actually like the title, as it gives the film a sort of auspicious quality the other films lack. It's also a nice contrast to the TV series, which I think was the point.

--Sran

 

[Melakon]

Regarding Stephen Collins, he was beginning to break out as a name, and had gotten some good reviews for his work in All the President's Men. I was quite aware of his name by the time of TMP.

 

[trevanian]

That doesn't sound too likely, because the doors opening & closing would have been in even the earliest assemblies, preVFX, so those would have had the most time for sounds to be assembled & developed.

Go look it up for yourself, and/or take it up with Robert Wise. Also note the differences in that area between the theatrical edition and the DE. Christopher seems familiar with the subject, so I'm sure he would have corrected me if I'd been wrong.

You HAVE to know I am as familiar with the differences between the DE and the theatrical as anyone here, c'mon.

I have a feeling you might have read something about this in STAR TREK THE MAG, as I recall a lot of questionable stuff in their TMP issue. All of the DE-era discussion of TMP is suspect, especially Wise's, since it seems to be SharplineArts making the declarations and Wise mouthing or reading the words. We've already covered the considerable deviations in Wise's views of the film from right after release to the DE in so many threads here it isn't funny.

I do think the whole 'cold' issue has to do with more than just hue, but quality of light as well. Cold is often just fine - when it is cold and crisp. But the decision to use soft sidelight in a contrasty way (instead of harder light) essentially creates a mushy look, about as far from TOS as imaginable, especially when you add in the split-diopter stuff, which works better when you have sharply defined areas rather than mushy ones, and the 'cold' quality is kind of a sickly cold, like Kirk McCoy on the bridge before the wormhole, where everything is just glaringly unflattering (I remember the big still on the 1980 calendar of that scene was particularly flinch-worthy.)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Regarding the soundtrack, there was a complete lack of intended ambient sound effects, like doors making noise, because they didn't have time to put them in.

That doesn't sound too likely, because the doors opening & closing would have been in even the earliest assemblies, preVFX, so those would have had the most time for sounds to be assembled & developed.

Not too sure about how much of the DE relied on original unused tracks either ... the mix on the DE is just so boring (the wormhole alert is a good example, an alarm that puts you to sleep instead of, well, alarming you) it sounds like a quickie assembly.

Yes, the wormhole alert is indeed "an alarm that puts you to sleep instead of, well, alarming you", isn't it.

And, I have to wonder whether Wise et al. would have thought the same thing in 1979. Assuming that Christopher is right about these being elements that were recovered from 1979, I'm (as yet) unconvinced that these elements wouldn't have been tweaked in ways that we'll never know. For example, perhaps they would have decided to speed up the wormhole alarm or to refine it in other ways, once they'd witnessed a cut of the film with all the intended elements in place.

The whole point of a DE is for a director to make the film he wishes he'd had the artistic freedom to make in the first place, right? I'm not convinced that this DE represents that.

 

[Christopher]

The whole point of a DE is for a director to make the film he wishes he'd had the artistic freedom to make in the first place, right? I'm not convinced that this DE represents that.

Robert Wise didn't raise any objections. Of course he wasn't the same person in 2001 that he was in 1979, but he sure seemed to be satisfied with the DE. It isn't exactly what he would've made in '79 if he'd been given time to complete the film, but it's a damn sight closer to that than the other two versions.

Keep in mind that the people behind the DE approached it as a work of film restoration. So it's like the restorations we have of old silent films -- they're not exactly like the original releases, nobody expects them to be, but they're as close as we're able to approximate them with the knowledge and resources we have.

 

[2takesfrakes]

TMP is gorgeous eye candy! I love the Art Deco design of the refitted ENTERPRISE and its pearlescent finish. The little "worker bee" one-man vehicles were really cool and I thought the shuttle pod was, too. I liked the edgier, squared off look of alot of the space vehicles, just as an aesthetic. When STAR TREK IV came along and they had these strange, bulbous shuttle pods and everything has to be smooth and rounded, I just really hated that. It just looks an effect, to me.

And I really despise that big old Space Station in STAR TREK III (my favorite TREK movie). Unlike the lacey framework in TMP, they opted for this big, fat, easy-to-composite matte painting that just looks absurd. The further away they got from the look of TMP, the less I liked ILM's approach toward the material. Although, I do not think that the Bird of Prey would've been in better hands than ILM. I will say that. I don't know. I just liked TMP's utilitarian look, or whatever you would want to call it. I really hated having to see that go ...

 

[Christopher]

^The ST III Spacedock was a miniature, not a matte painting. Although I'm not sure which technique they used for the interior.

I've never cared for any of ILM's Trek designs. I hate the Klingon Bird of Prey. Matt Jefferies's D7 has such grace and menacing elegance, but the BoP is crude and graceless and ugly. They modeled it so that its front view looked like a football linebacker with his head lowered and his arms spread -- hardly an image of elegance.

 

[Lance]

To be completely fair, like the USS Voyager, the Klingon B-O-P was designed to have wings that change position between 'attack mode' (wings down) and 'flight mode' (wings up). But also like the USS Voyager, we only actually see the wings change a handful of times on screen (AFAIK only in The Search For Spock, and only then in a few shots when the B-O-P is coming in for landing on Vulcan?).

It was one of those cool ideas that was just too darn impracticle to show consistently.

(I do agree though, the B-O-P is okay as maybe a Romulan ship as it was indeed designed to be, but it doesn't hold a candle to the Matt Jeffries Klingon ship designs and never will.)

 

[Harvey]

Keep in mind that the people behind the DE approached it as a work of film restoration. So it's like the restorations we have of old silent films -- they're not exactly like the original releases, nobody expects them to be, but they're as close as we're able to approximate them with the knowledge and resources we have.

Considering that the Director's Edition doesn't conform to Wise's public comments about his editing wishes made in the wake of the theatrical release (in 1980), and also Easter Eggs like the TOS-era shuttlecraft that have been added to the beginning, it's a bit of a stretch to call the approach one of "film restoration."

Which is not to complain about the Director's Edition -- it's easily the best version of the film out there, and it's a shame the Blu-Ray edition reverted to the inferior theatrical version (which I'd be happy to see via seamless branching, but don't want as the only choice).

 

[The Old Mixer]

I don't "hate" the BoP...it's fine for the type of small attack vessel that it was presented as in TSFS...but good lord, did it become the most overused ship design in Trek. It was when they started using it on TNG as a larger-scale variant that it lost its original role in the scheme of things and became an inferior D7 replacement.

 

[Christopher]

Considering that the Director's Edition doesn't conform to Wise's public comments about his editing wishes made in the wake of the theatrical release (in 1980), and also Easter Eggs like the TOS-era shuttlecraft that have been added to the beginning, it's a bit of a stretch to call the approach one of "film restoration."

Which is not to complain about the Director's Edition -- it's easily the best version of the film out there, and it's a shame the Blu-Ray edition reverted to the inferior theatrical version (which I'd be happy to see via seamless branching, but don't want as the only choice).

But Wise was consulted in the creation of the DE. Naturally some of his opinions would change over the course of 22 years, but it was still guided by his input, and by Roddenberry's notes from the time about possible edits and corrections that could be made for foreign editions, and so forth. Sure, there was a bit of embellishment here and there, but for the most part, the goal was to make the film look and sound like it was released in 1979. They even digitally sampled the grain from the same stock of film TMP was shot on and superimposed it onto their digital FX shots, and tried to make the CGI look as much like conventional miniature photography and cel animation as possible. They weren't trying to do a George Lucas-style updating, but strove to be faithful to the look and feel of the original. Maybe they took liberties in a couple of shots, like adding the TOS shuttle, but I certainly don't object to that; one thing that always bothered me about TMP was how little design continuity it had with TOS.

Obviously it's impossible to recreate the film Wise would've made in '79 given the chance. But the DE is the closest thing we have, and as you say, it's clearly superior to the other versions.

 

[Harvey]

I don't remember anything about Roddenberry's post-release notes being consulted for the Director's Edition. What's your source on that?

 

[Christopher]

What's your source on that?

Probably the December 2001 Collector's Edition issue of Star Trek: The Magazine, which had a ton of behind-the-scenes info about the DE, or else Star Trek Communicator #136, which was also a "Special Collector's Issue" focused on the DE.

 

[Harvey]

Thanks. I have the Star Trek The Magazine issue sitting in a box somewhere; I'll have to unearth it at some point.

 

[beamMe]

^The ST III Spacedock was a miniature, not a matte painting. Although I'm not sure which technique they used for the interior.

The interior is also a very large miniature.

 

[Maurice]

Hoo boy. This again.

Trevanian has it pretty on-the-nose as far as his comments on the film's production. If there's anything he knows, it's about movie VFX and post production processes, especially of movies of that period, so I would not be quick to dismiss his posts on those topics. Some other people are somewhat knowledgeable, but frequently incorrect about production details and how these things work. And interviews made 20 years after the fact do not trump references made during the production.

For those new to the board, I have previously quoted this: a few salient quotes from a Robert Wise interview titled "A Very Sloppy Way to Make a Movie" (Best of Starlog Vol. VI), which is described in the introduction as having been conducted "In 1980, a few months after the release of the 1979 film."

STARLOG: The film's final cut is two hours and ten minutes...don't you think that the present cut is also a bit long at times?
WISE: Sure do!
STARLOG: There's the scene when Kirk is being taken by Scotty around the Enterprise in that spacepod shuttle.
WISE: That is one minute and 30 seconds [too] long, and the flight inside V'ger is about two minutes too long.*

WISE: ...One of the reservations I have about the film is that I didn't have time to fine tune it. I think we could have trimmed it by six-and-a-half minutes--at least! I was planning to do more cuts on the version which would be released overseas, but I found out later that Paramount had already made 150 prints, so it would have been too costly to go back an re-edit it...
​

Emphasis (underlines) mine.


As to the sound mix, the way sound was cut pre-digital was tremendously cumbersome and every time you trimmed or added frames in an edit it forced a lot of work retiming all the multitrack magnetic tape reels for each reel of the film. As such, changing the soundtrack was not trivial, nor was tweaking the film's running time because of the corresponding need to rework the audio tracks. As such, changes were likely not made unless absolutely necessary. But to say there were no sounds on doors, etc., is demonstrably not true just by watching the film. In fact, I recall when then movie came out some fans complained that the door sounds weren't the same as the original show, for instance.

And to be completely honest, I actually have copies of some of the raw sound effects reels from TMP, and these include sounds that were in both the theatrical release AND the DE, which makes me suspect that the sounds used in TWOK and the DE these weren't so much "sounds they didn't have time to put in" (to paraphrase) but sounds they chose not to use. There's a whole series of escalating alarm sounds, for instance.​

 

[Christopher]

^Again, I don't see your point. I have already agreed, more than once, that the DE is not exactly what a completed 1979 version of TMP would have been. That is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be pointed out. What I have said is that it's closer than the other available versions, that it corrects many of their flaws, and that it did have the involvement of Robert Wise, even if it was 2001 Robert Wise rather than 1979 Robert Wise. Obviously, making the film exactly the way Wise wanted it in '79 is impossible, so that's a ridiculous standard to judge it by. But if you're going to make an updated edit of a Robert Wise film 22 years after the fact, there's nobody I'd trust more with that process than Robert Wise, who was not only the guy who directed the film, but the guy who edited Citizen Kane and thus knew a lot more about editing than anyone here. If he was okay with the DE, then who am I to argue? If Wise-'01 decided to approve changes from Wise-'79's original plan, I'm going to take that as the result of his greater experience and time to reconsider, and I'm not going to tell him he's wrong about his own movie.