Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,maybe?

[Cadet49]

Could it be possible that the entire Constitution-class was being retired at the end of Star Trek VI, not just the Enterprise-A, and possibly because Starfleet had decided that the long, thin neck that connects the primary hull to the secondary hull was too much of a weak spot on structural stress or vulnerable to damage in an attack? I noticed that all of the canonical vessels of the time period that succeeded the Enterprise-A either had no "neck" (the Miranda class, the Constellation class) or a much thicker or shorter, stockier neck (Excelsior class, Ambassador class, Nebula class, etc.). Could it be that the long, thin neck was too much of a liability in the class with more modern ship designs available?

Just a thought.

 

[Ablative_Oberth]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Hm, possibly.

Also another stress-point would be the nacelle-strut roots.

 

[Mr Silver]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Actually when thinking back to the battle in TUC, the Ent-A took considerably more damage than the Excelsior, yet when they Excelsior was hit with one torpedo (even with full shields) the place went crazy, blast doors came down, people got flung around the place and there was even a blast area mark on the ships hull

 

[Ablative_Oberth]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

I suspect as part of the "deal" between Starfleet and the Klingons the Klingons were given some way of bypassing Starfleet shields.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Other ship classes also have a neck like that (the Freedom class, for example, has the exact same one) so no, I don't think that's a problem.

There's always going to be vulnerable parts on a starship. Unless you make it a big cube or sphere like the Borg do.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

The Death Star was a sphere and it had exactly one vulnerable spot.

 

[FormerLurker]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Unlike the rock monster in Galazy Quest, which didn't have any.

 

[Quantum_Penguin]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

A thicker neck is not necessarily more resilient than a thin one. Consider that if the Excelsior was hit in the dorsal by a torpedo, the point of impact would be surrounded by much more material than on the Connie.

Assuming the torpedo goes off exactly at the point of impact, the "far" end of the neck on the Excelsior will have to absorb energy and dissipate it into the rest of the ship. With the thin neck, only a "slice" of the explosion's energy will be absorbed with most of it going back in the direction of the torpedo or out the other side. The neck may be blown through, but the rest of it will remain.

Furthermore, if the torpedo doesn't have a chance to dissipate all of its energy when it hits the neck, it may come out the other side unscathed and detonate too late to maximize damage. Instead, the thicker necks of later ships give the torpedo much more opportunity to slow down within the volume of the ship, potentially increasing the amount of damage it could do.

This may be what we see in operation in ST VI when the Enterprise's saucer is pierced from below: most of the fireball we see going upwards through the saucer and what's left is a remarkably uniform hole. The saucer may have been compromised, but being only two decks thick (and perhaps less if it hit the scalloped underside) gave the torpedo less of a chance do harm to nearby sections.

Imagine if this happened to a Galaxy or Sovereign class saucer; unless it hit the very rim, the torpedo might leave a hemi-spherical crater rather than a hole. Presumably, Starfleet engineers would attempt to mitigate this in the more robust ships by thinning the structural members as much as possible. This would not only reduce mass, it would give the torpedo much less to come in contact with.

My impression of the trend towards more integrated hulls is that it has to do with warp field dynamics. Perhaps earlier ships had to minimize their displacement in key areas to achieve higher warp factors; something that is unnecessary, or even inefficient with the more modern understanding of warp physics in TNG. Notice that Voyager and Sovereign, much faster ships than the Galaxy/Nebula generation, eliminate the neck entirely.

This is further supported by the fact that the Klingons appear to be following this trend. Compare the impossibly thin boom of the D-7 to the much more substantial spars of the Vor'cha and Negh'var. This suggests that there are universal trends affecting the designs of starships, at least the ones with paired nacelles.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

That's like saying the 1989 Mustang was retired because it didn't have airbags.

Why was the Constitution retired? Because a better model had come along. The Connie class served for something like 20 or 30 years; it was being retired becuase it was old not because after a quarter century they decided the neck design was stupid.

 

[AJBryant]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Unlike the rock monster in Galazy Quest, which didn't have any.

Y'see, that's your problem. No respect for the craft.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Actually when thinking back to the battle in TUC, the Ent-A took considerably more damage than the Excelsior, yet when they Excelsior was hit with one torpedo (even with full shields) the place went crazy, blast doors came down, people got flung around the place and there was even a blast area mark on the ships hull

If you look at the footage again, after Chang says "Our revels are now ended, Kirk.", the footage of the mayhem is in the Enterprise. You can see the diagrams of the Constitution Class on the walls especially in the engineering section.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Actually when thinking back to the battle in TUC, the Ent-A took considerably more damage than the Excelsior, yet when they Excelsior was hit with one torpedo (even with full shields) the place went crazy, blast doors came down, people got flung around the place and there was even a blast area mark on the ships hull

If you look at the footage again, after Chang says "Our revels are now ended, Kirk.", the footage of the mayhem is in the Enterprise. You can see the diagrams of the Constitution Class on the walls especially in the engineering section.

Additionally, didn't the first hit on the Enterprise yield a blast mark as well? It hardly seems like a special thing to point.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Additionally, didn't the first hit on the Enterprise yield a blast mark as well? It hardly seems like a special thing to point.

I think the Excelsior had much better shielding. It is a superior ship to the Enterprise, and you can see a shield like dispersal dissipate from where it hit the saucer section.

 

[FormerLurker]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Every hit on Enterprise left a blast mark except the last one, which went right through.

 

[Mr Silver]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Enteprise was badly battered by the time Excelsior arrived, Excelsior as the superior ship should have shrugged off the lone torpedo strike, however it didn't, since blast doors came down, the torpedo had penetrated the ships hull (Torpedos even though they are designed to penetrate ships hulls, they are not that effective against shields, well against 24th century shields anyway, but the point remains, we hear Sulu clearly say "Shields up, now we've given him something else to shoot at" the first torpedo should not have been able to breach the Excelsiors shields), the point is, Excelsior took way too much of a beating from just one torpedo, where as the Ent-A was still manouverable and holding on, in fact after several torpedo strikes (and 1 torpedo hit that penetrated the hull destroying the dinner hall) most of the Ent-A's systems were still online, they still had Shields (albeit minimum, with several breaches), Impulse Drive and of course Torpedo's

The logical situation of that battle is flawed, either the writers overlooked basic battle strategy or Sulu is a piss poor Captain, My point is, even though the BOP was cloaked, there were two ships, as we see in Nemesis, the Ent-E and the Romulan's are firing blind until they get a hit and then concentrating their fire in that area, since BOP's of that particular class can't raise shields when clocked, one pot shot from either the Ent-A or the Excelsior would have crippled the cloak and no more damage would have been done as Spock and McCoy prepared the "Special Photon", in fact if they had crippled the cloak and the ships engines, then they could have taken Chang and Co into custody rather than blowing the ship up, I'll admit the entire sequence is enjoyable, but from a logical and indeed "Star Trek" POV the battle is inconsistent with any sensible "Battle Strategies"

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

Excelsior as the superior ship

There is no indication of this. It not like it was a case of the Enterprise being the crusier to the Excelsior's battleship. It would seem that the Excelsior is simply a larger Enterpise. In terms of combat capacities, the Excelsior carries the identical torpedoes, in spite of her larger bulk she possesses the same sized phaser turrets, and in the same numbers. The only advantage the Excelsior had was that she was late to the fight and she faced an opponent who then had to divide his fire.

Chang did not even have to destroy either ship (although he would have liked too), all he had to accomplish was to delay either ship from reaching transporter range of the surface, until after the Chancellor was assassinated and the assassin withdrew. At that point Chang could have simply disengaged quietly. At that point all Kirk would have had was Valeris's word.

if they had crippled the cloak and the ships engines, then they could have taken Chang and Co into custody rather than blowing the ship up

Even crippled as you described, Chang could have still fired on the surface, Kirk and Sulu couldn't have taken that chance. They had no idea what Chang's intentions were.

.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Enteprise was badly battered by the time Excelsior arrived, Excelsior as the superior ship should have shrugged off the lone torpedo strike, however it didn't, since blast doors came down, the torpedo had penetrated the ships hull

But it didn't. Those shots of the corridors with the blast doors and the engineering section being flooded with gas was on the Enterprise. All the Excelsior got was a simple bang that threw the ship off balance (which was obviously taken from the shockwave sequence from the beginning of the movie).

 

[Basill]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that Enteprise was badly battered by the time Excelsior arrived, Excelsior as the superior ship should have shrugged off the lone torpedo strike, however it didn't, since blast doors came down, the torpedo had penetrated the ships hull

But it didn't. Those shots of the corridors with the blast doors and the engineering section being flooded with gas was on the Enterprise. All the Excelsior got was a simple bang that threw the ship off balance (which was obviously taken from the shockwave sequence from the beginning of the movie).

Where did you get that? I would have to argue that with the way that portion of the scene was edited, that it was indeed the Excelsior (who had just taken a hit from Chang) that was dealing with those blast door issues and not the Enterprise.

After the Excelsior bridge crew is hurled out of their seats there is a brief transition back to Enterprise, but only to show the bridge crew witnessing the Excelsior attack. The Enterprise crew is rather steady and seems to be taking a break from the hits. The scene transitions immediately back to chaos and shaky camera, and I don't think anyone intended that to be perceived as Enterprise damage.

I must also say that those closing doors don't automatically indicate a hull breach. They could also be needed just to close off the environment from deadly leaking gases.

 

[Timo]

Re: Constitution-class' "neck" - reason for retirement of the class,ma

In terms of combat capacities, the Excelsior carries the identical torpedoes, in spite of her larger bulk she possesses the same sized phaser turrets, and in the same numbers.

To be sure, the Enterprise had twelve phasers, in six twin mounts, on her saucer; the Excelsior had twenty, in ten twin mounts. And while the rest of the Excelsior model might not have featured easily distinguishable phaser emitters in any great quantity, it does seem she had the four ventral secondary hull phasers just like her smaller sister. And "Paradise Lost" demonstrated a large number of other emitter locations which may or may not have been added when that particular Excelsior was modified.

The true difference between cruiser and battleship in traditional parlance, the effectiveness of protection, cannot be discerned from looks or dialogue alone. That Sulu's ship was hurt by the first shot might suggest "cruiser-level" protection only... Or then a lucky hit that knocked out some delicate internal systems without actually creating much hull damage.

Timo Saloniemi