Constitution Cargo Derivative

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ For the same reason they called Vulcans "Vulcanians" in the first season. Continuity wasn't their strong suit back then.

And, no doubt, there are some engineering-related mechanisms to get power to the warp engines. Additionally, I never said the secondary hull was devoid of engineering facilities, I simply said main engineering was in the primary hull.

 

[Mytran]

Or at least, there exists an engineering control room in the saucer. We've seen several variations of the engineering set in TOS, with nothing to say they are the same space. I'm of the belief that there are several "engine rooms" throughout the ship - both saucer and secondary hull.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Yes, I've seen some fan-made MSD's that reflect that concept that make sense - a good compromise between the two schools of thought.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Plus, doesn't Scotty say "My engine rooms", or words to that effect, in "Balance of Terror"?

 

[Wingsley]

For anyone who is still interested:

FJ's 1975 Technical Manual - Engineering Section - Primary Hull - Class I Starships

 

[blssdwlf]

Plus, doesn't Scotty say "My engine rooms", or words to that effect, in "Balance of Terror"?

From "The Naked Time":

SCOTT: Engineers, man your stations. Engine rooms, report. Cycling station, report. This will be an emergency restart of engines.
​

There are also dialog references to engineering decks as well

 

[Timo]

The secondary hull is not wide enough to accommodate that corridor.

Sure is.

It's not even a particularly tight fit. Remember how the set was laid out in reality? Engineering was not sticking out radially from the middle of the (as such short enough to fit transversely into the secondary hull, at least for the visible portion) curving corridor, but extending from very near one end of that curving corridor, and at such an angle that the whole thing fit inside a rectangle that was less than two Engineering sets wide (albeit something like three Engineering sets long, along the "ship's axis", or along the direction in which the forced perspective thing at Engineering extends anyway).

Now, the most logical way to fit such shapes in the secondary hull would probably be by assuming that the setup is doubled and mirrored: the curved corridor lies ahead of the portside engine room, while its fictional mirror lies ahead of the starboard one, and the two join to create a wishbone shape of sorts. Like in VOY.

Or then we can reinterpret the angles a bit and have the curved corridor represent something that goes round a big spherical reactor thingamabob in the middle of the secondary hull, curving ever-so-slightly more than the real set to fit there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Albertese]

^^^

I recall one old poster on this very forum (by the handle of Ancient) used this exact arrangement in his deck plans project.

I had the idea myself about a year earlier than that, but never published it, so I'm fine giving the credit to him.

--Alex

 

[Mytran]

With only a little tweaking on the pivot of the curved corridor (which still tallies with the shot in Ultimate Computer) the visible set fits into the engineering hull - just!

 

[Timo]

OTOH, if we consider that the curvature of the engine room ceiling suggests that said room is on the starboard side of the hull, and accept a little bit of asymmetry for the corridor, we can drop the "just" bit. Say,



(Oh, and imagine this is a top view.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

The only episode where the full length of that corridor needs to be accounted for is "The Ultimate Computer" where it is a continuous shot as the crew walks down the corridor from the turbolift to the engine room. All the other episodes AFAIK only show a portion of the corridor and that will fit in the secondary hull with the engine room on the starboard side. The long corridor from "The Ultimate Computer" could easily be a walk to the engine room in the primary hull. I don't see any problem with engine rooms in the primary hull and secondary hull as evidenced from "The Omega Glory".

 

[Albertese]

Well, there are engines on both hulls so it should follow that there are engine rooms in both locations as well.

--Alex

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ I would agree with that. Trying to fit the hallway of what was clearly always intended to be the primary hull into the secondary hull seems real thin - anorexic, actually. I suppose it can be done with the fore-mentioned tweaking, but I firmly believe that the set designers never intended for the curved corridor to be anywhere other than the primary hull, all rationalization aside.

Two similarly-designed engine rooms in both hulls is an efficient and elegant compromise for both camps that has the benefit of making absolute sense.

 

[TIN_MAN]

My take on all this FWIW, is that the 1st season engine room is in the secondary "engineering" hull, and the 2cd/3rd season engine room is in the primary hull. This matches most (but not all) dialogue wherein the 1st season engine room is several times referenced (“Court Martial” for one) as being “the lower levels” and such, and several 2cd/3rd season references seem to suggest this “new” engine room is in the primary hull (“Day of the Dove” and “The Doomsday Machine” for example)?

I take the “Omega Glory” clip as evidence that there are indeed at least two engine rooms on board, but I don’t literally have to accept that both are Identical as the clip would suggest since stock footage is used here, too bad no one in the editing dept. thought to use a clip of the first season engine room here, but oh well.

As to why it‘s the primary hull engine room that would have the dilithium converter assembly? Well, you’ve got me there; my best guess would be that it is equivalent to the “deflector crystal” of TMP refit? This would tie in with Drexler’s speculation that this feature is what he calls the “symmetrical warp governor” (even though his own design for the TOS ship puts this engine room in the secondary hull)?

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ This could work, unfortunately the secondary hull folks argue that the "hate-energy" creature from "Day of the Dove" emerged from there and not the primary hull, hence many think main engineering is there.

And yes, there is the glaring issue of the dilithium chambers and the orientation of those big blue-tubed reactors, sometimes facing each other, sometimes facing the opposite wall.

Speaking of dilithium crystals, IIRC they were located in different places around the ship - some being in main engineering, others (the episode with Lazarus - "Alternative Factor") were located in these bins in some wall mechanism. Methinks the purpose of dilithium changed over the years as well - starting off in early TOS almost as a source of raw power, later on being used more as a focusing catalyst for the matter/anti-matter reaction.

Like I said in a previous post, continuity was not on the top of their list back in the 60's and they certainly didn't expect thousands of fans to get on something called "Teh Interwebz" to discuss and analyze it so ruthlessly from high-definition stills.

 

[TIN_MAN]

^^ Oh yeah, I had forgot about the "hate-energy" creature from "Day of the Dove" emerging from the secondary hull, but this isn't necessarily a deal breaker, since it's from the dialogue in "Day of the Dove" that we get the strongest evidence that this engineering room is on deck seven in the primary hull, so the episode is self-contradictory (surprise, surprise) in this regard. On the other hand, maybe the two engine rooms are identical after all?

In any event, the creators of the show only had the one engine room set to use, so it's not like they were gonna build a new engine room set whenever the script called for it. Same with the transporter room and the various cargo and mass transporters that are supposed to be there; this is just a case where we need to lighten up a bit and use our imagination and not always take things so literally and/or at face value?

 

[yenny]

Why is everyone trying to make the NCC-1701 smaller then she actually is? The engineering hull is around 104-105 feet in width. While engineering itself, is around 50-80 feet in width.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

2 main engine rooms make sense. One for the impulse engines and one for the main matter/antimatter power plant. The impulse deck would no doubt be big and important enough to want to have technicians there monitoring and maintaining the engines.

However main engineering should be where the intermix chamber (or chambers) are since these produce the most power, are the most hazardous, and don't just power the warp nacelles, but the entire ship. Main engineering for all Starfllet ships, including the NX, is where intermix chamber is so it stands to reason the same would be true on the Constitution. Besides, if the intermix chamber is in the primary hulls, that means power conduits would have to run through the neck then up the pylons to the nacelles. I think it makes more engineering sense to have this main power plant closer to the nacelles.

I could also understand having engineering stations where the RCS thrusters are but I've always thought these were monitored remotely.

 

[Albertese]

2 main engine rooms make sense. One for the impulse engines and one for the main matter/antimatter power plant. The impulse deck would no doubt be big and important enough to want to have technicians there monitoring and maintaining the engines.

However main engineering should be where the intermix chamber (or chambers) are since these produce the most power, are the most hazardous, and don't just power the warp nacelles, but the entire ship. Main engineering for all Starfllet ships, including the NX, is where intermix chamber is so it stands to reason the same would be true on the Constitution. Besides, if the intermix chamber is in the primary hulls, that means power conduits would have to run through the neck then up the pylons to the nacelles. I think it makes more engineering sense to have this main power plant closer to the nacelles.

I could also understand having engineering stations where the RCS thrusters are but I've always thought these were monitored remotely.

I mentioned earlier about how before TNG, the general assumption was that the power generation happened in the nacelles themselves. The TMP refit made the change to the central reactor set-up. Having said that, there are a handful of references in TOS that might imply a central reactor (most notably in "That Which Survives") and several references that could be taken either way. This topic of where the actual power generation happened on the TOS E is hotly debated and a simple search will no doubt uncover recent threads detailing this argument at great -- perhaps even exhaustive -- length...

My personal solution which fulfills all the on-screen evidence to my satisfaction is that there are at least three main reactors (the "Mains") one of which is in each nacelle and a central reactor which is somehow critical in the operation of the other two.

YMMV

--Alex

 

[Timo]

I would like to point out that "two engine rooms" is somewhat below the absolute minimum that the stories actually require.

After all, there are two episodes where it's absolutely crucial that engineering be a vast maze where people can hide basically indefinitely from search parties well versed in the layout of the ship: "Enemy Within" and "Court Martial". That's very difficult to achieve with two eighty-by-eighty-foot rooms!

The big maze probably won't be in the saucer, not with the other half of the ship explicitly considered the "engineering hull". Smaller facilities inside the saucer have every right to look like the Engineering set, of course - although any facility located near the rim of the saucer will face problems if it's as high as the later, two-level set...

Timo Saloniemi