Constellation NCC-1017 Question

[MapleJack]

Here's a thought that's been running about my head since the 80s. With Constitution class ships being made up of two hulls, the saucer being identified as the main hull, if the the main hull is attached to a new drive section, does it get or deserve a new hull number? I think it could go either way.

Yes, this goes back to a theory on the Constellation NCC-1017 being something other then a Constitution class ship, yet similar enough, when first launched and then refited into being a Constitution class later on.

Any thoughts on this old chestnut?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm still wondering why they didn't make it NCC-1710, assuming they just rearranged the numbers from the model kit originally used to make the ship.

'Course if they had done that, we would not be having this discussion now.

 

[Dukhat]

Here's a thought that's been running about my head since the 80s. With Constitution class ships being made up of two hulls, the saucer being identified as the main hull, if the the main hull is attached to a new drive section, does it get or deserve a new hull number? I think it could go either way.

Yes, this goes back to a theory on the Constellation NCC-1017 being something other then a Constitution class ship, yet similar enough, when first launched and then refited into being a Constitution class later on.

Any thoughts on this old chestnut?

I think that the Constellation is a Constitution class ship and always was, because that was the original intent of the episode. Fanwank theories about the ship being a different class based solely on the registry number or the minute differences between the studio model and the model kit is roughly analogous to making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[BillJ]

Here's a thought that's been running about my head since the 80s. With Constitution class ships being made up of two hulls, the saucer being identified as the main hull, if the the main hull is attached to a new drive section, does it get or deserve a new hull number? I think it could go either way.

Yes, this goes back to a theory on the Constellation NCC-1017 being something other then a Constitution class ship, yet similar enough, when first launched and then refited into being a Constitution class later on.

Any thoughts on this old chestnut?

I think that the Constellation is a Constitution class ship and always was, because that was the original intent of the episode. Fanwank theories about the ship being a different class based solely on the registry number or the minute differences between the studio model and the model kit is roughly analogous to making a mountain out of a molehill.

Well your no fun.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Here's a thought that's been running about my head since the 80s. With Constitution class ships being made up of two hulls, the saucer being identified as the main hull, if the the main hull is attached to a new drive section, does it get or deserve a new hull number? I think it could go either way.

Yes, this goes back to a theory on the Constellation NCC-1017 being something other then a Constitution class ship, yet similar enough, when first launched and then refited into being a Constitution class later on.

Any thoughts on this old chestnut?

I think that the Constellation is a Constitution class ship and always was, because that was the original intent of the episode. Fanwank theories about the ship being a different class based solely on the registry number or the minute differences between the studio model and the model kit is roughly analogous to making a mountain out of a molehill.

REAL answer - it was a quick-and-dirty "fix" job. I would have reordered the digits ("1710") when doing the CGI reworking a while back, if I had been in charge. The reason for the odd number was to prevent people from seeing it and thinking it was the Enterprise, even if they had a fuzzy, static-filled screen. NOT an issue, from my perspective, today.

Now... as for an "in-universe" explanation?

I've heard stories about the other ships having different registry numbers, out of the 17xx sequence, but I've never really cared about that because we never saw a Constitution-class ship, on-screen, with numbers assigned, except for the Enterprise and the Constellation... did we?

If we need to treat the Constellation as really being 1017, well... it just seems obvious that the number was a "reassignment."

See, I don't see the NCC as standing for "Naval Construction Contract." I see it as standing for "navigational contact code"... basically, an enhanced IFF signal.

After all, we have various ships, later on, which carry forward the 1701 contact code, although we know that they weren't build under the original construction contract, or any "addendum" to that contract... right? Each of them pulses out "1701" as the ship's contact code...

SO... there was some famous, history-making starship called the Constellation, and the Constitution-class was named (and numbered) to honor that original ship. Since the earlier ship was MUCH earlier, there was never any issue of the two being confused... so they just reused the code as-is.

Later on, the destruction of the rebuilt Enterprise (which retained virtually nothing except for the code transponder from the original ship!) resulted in another ship being given the name "Enterprise." (And, as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't an already-operating ship which, after years in service, was renamed... it was clearly a new-built ship, though it may have been built with the INTENTION of being christened something else.) Because that ship was very similar to the previous, they had to modify the code slightly... adding another character, basically.

But the Constellation was just named and numbered to honor a previous "hero ship" (which we've just never, yet, heard about!)

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yes, this goes back to a theory on the Constellation NCC-1017 being something other then a Constitution class ship, yet similar enough, when first launched and then refited into being a Constitution class later on.

Any thoughts on this old chestnut?

That starship hull registries are generally--but not always--assigned sequentially?

 

[Warped9]

SO... there was some famous, history-making starship called the Constellation, and the Constitution-class was named (and numbered) to honor that original ship. Since the earlier ship was MUCH earlier, there was never any issue of the two being confused... so they just reused the code as-is.

That makes the most sense to me and I've long thought along similar lines for what we saw onscreen.

 

[Captain Robert April]

The differences between the Constitution class and whatever the Constellation was are roughly analogous to the differences between a Nimitz class aircraft carrier and a Kitty Hawk class carrier. To the untrained eye, they look the same, but the two are actually very, very different.

 

[Timo]

...that was the original intent of the episode

I rather doubt that. Had the Makers been able to execute their "intent" on such matters, they would probably have presented a new and exciting starship design in every episode, naturally crewed with hundreds of extras scurrying busily through all-new sets and shouting audible lines. But that would have beggared the poor Makers...

It would have been fun to have a subtly different ship design in the remake of the episode. That is, less subtly different from Kirk's ship than the original was, so that the audience would clearly see the differences, but still of the same general shape. That would have been both in the "spirit" of the original episode (looks similar because the original had to look similar for budgetary reasons) and in the "intent" of the original episode (looks different because that's what we're supposed to see).

Say, Decker's ship might have been a tad bigger and brawnier than Kirk's, to instill fear in us: superior hardware already succumbed to the beast, so what chance does our hero stand? Or slightly but noticeably older or smaller or weaker: Kirk's better ship may well be the solution, so it's a frightening plot complication that it's in the hands of a madman now!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I wish they would have allowed the 1710 in the remaster and the franchise just said, "We messed up 40 years ago but we fixed it." Either way, you can't please anyone.

I think I'll avoid the registry number debate. We've gone round enough on that one discussing the Grissom in the literature board.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Back before the redo was aired, and presumably still in some stage of production, I offered up my Constellation model for scanning (made from an AMT model of appropriate vintage, but not battle damaged). Mike Okuda responded that while they would've loved to have done something like that, time and budget just wasn't there for that kind of approach, so they just reworked the CGI Enterprise model they had. And I was probably too late anyway.

 

[Dukhat]

...that was the original intent of the episode

I rather doubt that. Had the Makers been able to execute their "intent" on such matters, they would probably have presented a new and exciting starship design in every episode, naturally crewed with hundreds of extras scurrying busily through all-new sets and shouting audible lines. But that would have beggared the poor Makers...

But that's just your opinion, not backed up by any kind of facts whatsoever. Did the modelmakers of the time actually say they wanted a different class of ship? Did they ever even give any indication that they even cared about something like that?

 

[Captain Robert April]

As we've go through over and over on these boards, "creator's intent" only carries you so far. It can be very instructional in understanding a given item, but it's not necessarily binding.

 

[Shaw]

Well, I don't know (or really care) about the in-universe stuff, but I can address the production aspects of this.

First, when the story was added to the second season production schedule, Jefferies went to Datin and asked to have another 33 inch model built to represent the Constellation. The cost was deemed too high, so that was when they decided to turn to the AMT kit which was finally in production. So from the start (even when a newly built model was on the table), the Constellation was intended to be the same as the Enterprise.

Second, the Constellation existed before the Constitution or Constitution Class had ever been thought about by anyone in TOS production. The first and only place Constitution Class appeared was on a display screen in The Trouble with Tribbles (that no one could see). Further, the link between the starship Constitution and NCC-1700 was done by fans (people who never worked on TOS) after the end of the series.

Throughout TOS only three starships had their names associated with numbers...

Enterprise NCC-1701
Republic NCC-1371
Constellation NCC-1017​

...and of those three, only two were seen as being the same configuration (Enterprise and Constellation).

Almost all of the headaches with this came from people trying to apply their pet theories after the end of TOS and them ending up in the production of later Trek series or movies. There was nothing wrong with the Constellation's number in TOS, the mistakes all came with people trying to push their ideas after TOS production had ended.

 

[Dukhat]

Shaw, thanks for this very informative information. The only thing I could add to that would be that it's *possible* that we know the Intrepid's number too, if one extrapolated from the chart in "Court Martial" that the NCC-1831 was meant to be that ship, per the dialog stating that her repairs are complete.

 

[Albertese]

Do we really know about the Republic? I recall Kirk saying, "Republic, number one three seven one," which doesn't specify a prefix. Really, then, the "NCC" is essentially speculation as well. But I might be remembering it wrong.

--Alex

 

[Vance]

Republic was always meant to be an older ship for Kirk to serve on. I've got no idea why anyone made her a Constitution class ship (including FJ). I've made her a Baton Rogue class ship, filling in that gap...

I've taken the 1831 to be the Intrepid, since that's what the Commodore is looking right at when he calls it in. It's not clear she's a Constitution class vessel, of course, and I would prefer that she wasn't.

 

[Dukhat]

Do we really know about the Republic? I recall Kirk saying, "Republic, number one three seven one," which doesn't specify a prefix. Really, then, the "NCC" is essentially speculation as well. But I might be remembering it wrong.

Well, if it's not the registry, then what is it?

I've taken the 1831 to be the Intrepid, since that's what the Commodore is looking right at when he calls it in. It's not clear she's a Constitution class vessel, of course, and I would prefer that she wasn't.

TOS-R shows the Connie Intrepid in orbit along with the Enterprise. However, it's registry is NCC-1631, because that's what Okuda/Jein et. al thought the number on the chart was. What gets me is that in HD, you can clearly see that the number is 1831.

I would prefer that the Intrepid wasn't a Connie either, if only because I find it hard to believe that ten of twelve Connies were at that Starbase at one time undergoing repairs (however, its crew count of 430 kinda lends credence to a Connie). Assigning those numbers to the spoken Connie names was Greg Jein's doing, and although he's a modelmaker extraordinaire, I don't agree with his logic about this at all.

 

[blssdwlf]

And there is the very high number XV-75847 from "errand of mercy". Having the Constellation as a low number 1017 never struck me as unusual.

 

[Vance]

Well, if it's not the registry, then what is it?

The phone number? Yeah, that's the registry, no other context makes any sense.

TOS-R shows the Connie Intrepid in orbit along with the Enterprise. However, it's registry is NCC-1631, because that's what Okuda/Jein et. al thought the number on the chart was. What gets me is that in HD, you can clearly see that the number is 1831.

Yeah, I never got Jein's interpretation of that table as making any sense. (Nearly all Connies at one place, at one time, all under repair). And the 1631 was always clearly readable to me...

I would prefer that the Intrepid wasn't a Connie either, if only because I find it hard to believe that ten of twelve Connies were at that Starbase at one time undergoing repairs (however, its crew count of 430 kinda lends credence to a Connie).

Well, the 400 lives comment just means a ship of relatively equivelant size and stature. I kinda like her being a predecessor to the Miranda, myself (Surya, Conventry, et al)... There's no real reason that she couldn't be a Constitution class, of course, aside from my personal preference on her registry.