Consequences

[XCV330]

Since you mention Ukraine in your subheading, I think that it is worth noting that the efforts of Russian intelligence agencies were very much intent on isolating and weakening Ukraine by diminishing interest in support the funding of arms by the US and other nations. The fact that Russia did go to war reflects the failure of those efforts.

Russia has had a long history of intel failures. They should stick to poetry and building rockets. It took multiple tries and an ice-axe to kill Trotsky, for instance. I wouldn't use them as the gold standard of how such a thing should be done.

Again, I'm not claiming that militaries and other government agencies don't make use of espionage and intelligence. However, all agencies have their own, often competing, interests, and the CIA (for instance) has different interests and motivations than the Pentagon. The article I quotes above explains this nicely.

I said as much. That's why the right agency for the right task, such as softening up an area you intend to land troops in, or preparing a resistance inside of occupied territory before you are ready to do anything overt about it, yourself.

 

[kkt]

They gave the Defiant a cloak, and let them keep it without oversight.

The Romulans got a great deal. They got all the Defiant's intelligence reports from the Gamma Quadrant, at NO risk to their own ships or troops.

 

[DonIago]

It does bother me that T'rul disappeared after "The Search" and nobody replaced her and there was no explanation given. Easy enough to rationalize it as the Romulans deciding they didn't care to maintain a presence on Defiant after all, but a throwaway line to that effect would have been nice.

Put another way, does anyone believe that the Romulans would simply take the Federation at its word if they said, "Oh, we promise Defiant will only use its cloaking device in the GQ"?

 

[fireproof78]

Put another way, does anyone believe that the Romulans would simply take the Federation at its word if they said, "Oh, we promise Defiant will only use its cloaking device in the GQ"?

Probably sabotaged to destruct if it locks on a Romulan ship.

 

[dupersuper]

It's not supposed to sit well with the audience. There are plenty of excuses as Sisko logs about, but ultimately it does not sit well with him, and the actions of the war do not sit well with Ross or Sisko at the end.

Whether or not the Romulans ever found out is largely irrelevant given the fact that Shinzon's coup wipes out much of the Romulan leadership.

...and then their home star explodes...

 

[kkt]

Put another way, does anyone believe that the Romulans would simply take the Federation at its word if they said, "Oh, we promise Defiant will only use its cloaking device in the GQ"?

What, a Starfleet officer lie? Surely you're joking...

 

[at Quark's]

They simply brought in Wesley, who told T' Rul: 'We're Starfleet, we don't lie!' That convinced them.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It does bother me that T'rul disappeared after "The Search" and nobody replaced her and there was no explanation given. Easy enough to rationalize it as the Romulans deciding they didn't care to maintain a presence on Defiant after all, but a throwaway line to that effect would have been nice.

Put another way, does anyone believe that the Romulans would simply take the Federation at its word if they said, "Oh, we promise Defiant will only use its cloaking device in the GQ"?

Another bullshit theory:

T'Rul was actually Obsidian Order secret agent Seska going undercover as a Romulan (with the Tal'Shair's permission) to gather intelligence on the Dominion in preparation for the joint Obsidian Order/Tal'Shiar strike on the Founder's original Homeworld (not knowing it was a trap and that the Founders would relocate the Great Link before the attack) that was planned for later that year after the fleet was constructed.

The Romulans had given the Obsidian Order ships cloaking devices, but they were a working but not top-of-the-line model of cloak that the Romulans were okay with sharing, because their ships had better, even more undetectable ones. So they allowed Seska/T'Rul to share the cloak with Starfleet to mount on the Defiant for its mission to the Gamma Quadrant.

After the Defiant was captured by the Jem'Hadar and taken to the Founder's Homeworld, a deliberate part of the Founders laying a trap for the Obsidian Order and Tal'Shiar to attack (since they knew who Seska/T'Rul was and had secretly been the ones encouraging the intelligence agencies to attack all along with the coercion of Changeling infiltrators) Seska/T'Rul reported the Homeworld's location (thanks to a secret tracking device she had implanted) back to her superiors at the Obsidian Order, and they shared it with the Tal'Shiar.

Her mission completed, there was no longer any reason for her to remain on the Defiant, and she simply told Starfleet that the Romulan government was satisfied that the cloak was in good hands. Returning home to Cardassia, she was reassigned to her next undercover mission, infiltrating Chakotay's Maquis cell posing as a Bajoran and getting close to Chakotay himself to learn their plans, and later she was transported to the Delta Quadrant by the Caretaker aboard the Voyager, never to be heard from in the Alpha Quadrant again.

 

[Ragitsu]

Schrodinger's Obsidian Order .

 

[Roundabout]

Maybe someone can write a story about this.

Plus I'm sure Vreenak's many enemies welcomed his demise, and didn't particularly care how it was achieved.

Probably true. But Vreenak probably also had his share of allies as well, within the Tal'Shiar and the military, I would imagine.

Even so, I can't see the Romulans of all species allowing that precedent to be set.

I agree. I don't think the Romulans would want the Federation to get into the habit of assassinating their people.

If the Romulans ever did find out that Vreenak was assassinated, there would probably be some factions of Romulans that would prefer to let bygones be bygones, since things turned out well in the big picture of things. But there would undoubtedly be others that would want payback.

I can imagine Vreenak's allies in the Tal'Shiar plotting revenge as soon as they discover the sordid facts of the matter. A discriminate and proportionate response would be par for the course. That would mean taking out Garak, preferably with an explosion; and possibly taking out Sisko too.

But since Sisko was no longer around, maybe they would target Bashir instead, with a toxic biomimetic gel, because they might have assumed that Bashir was involved in the scheme when Bashir signed off on supplying Sisko with the gel that Sisko needed to trade for the rods. An eye for an eye, etc. At that point, they would theoretically be even.

-----

Here's another "what if" angle to the story: what if Sisko's log entry, where he admitted to everything, wasn't actually successfully erased.

What if say, O'Brien, or whomever, while doing routine maintenance on the station's computer, uncovered Sisko's log entry intact, or at least the gist of it intact; and then the log entry wound up being leaked out to the public.

How would Kira, Worf, Odo, Dax, and especially Jake and Bashir react? Bashir might be the most righteous of the bunch. The info might not sit well with Bashir. What would happen to Sisko's reputation?



ETA: The writers were clever not to have any of the other characters, besides Sisko and Garak, in on the plot. Garak is a natural for this type of operation. By not including any of the other characters in the scheme, the writers avoided the potential of unnecessarily sullying any of the other character's reputation with the audience, that is, assuming the audience would view the plot/assassination negatively.

On the other hand, it can be seen as a cop out by the writers. Since none of the other characters knew of, or found out, about the plot/assassination, Sisko never had to answer for his actions to his colleagues; unlike how Bashir confronted Admiral Ross in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and thus forcing Ross to answer for his actions in that episode.

I wish Bashir would have found out about this. I can only imagine how Bashir would have reacted and what he might have said to Sisko. Of course, if the writers had done that, they would have only made things more complicated for themselves.

 

[somebuddyX]

I love they got away with it. I don't think it needs any follow-up. In real life often times bad people or even good people do a bad thing and they get away it. But also, fuck the Romulans. They got their asses beat at their own game several times in DS9 and they weren't hot shit in the first place. "Remember how your attacks on Klingon colonies only drove the Feds and Klingons closer together? Remember how you tried to start that Klingon Civil War and Data broke you by himself? Remember how you tried to invade Vulcan with five thousand troops, and by the way, was that a joke, no seriously, was that a prank on someone? Well as payback we fucked you up hard by dragging you into the Dominion War."

 

[Ragitsu]

...

 

[DonIago]

I love they got away with it. I don't think it needs any follow-up. In real life often times bad people or even good people do a bad thing and they get away it. But also, fuck the Romulans. They got their asses beat at their own game several times in DS9 and they weren't hot shit in the first place. "Remember how your attacks on Klingon colonies only drove the Feds and Klingons closer together? Remember how you tried to start that Klingon Civil War and Data broke you by himself? Remember how you tried to invade Vulcan with five thousand troops, and by the way, was that a joke, no seriously, was that a prank on someone? Well as payback we fucked you up hard by dragging you into the Dominion War."

I don't really think that was what Gene had in mind...

Not that what Gene had in mind should drive all creative decisions with regards to the franchise, but I do appreciate the idealism at least.

 

[kkt]

ETA: The writers were clever not to have any of the other characters, besides Sisko and Garak, in on the plot. Garak is a natural for this type of operation. By not including any of the other characters in the scheme, the writers avoided the potential of unnecessarily sullying any of the other character's reputation with the audience, that is, assuming the audience would view the plot/assassination negatively.

On the other hand, it can be seen as a cop out by the writers. Since none of the other characters knew of, or found out, about the plot/assassination, Sisko never had to answer for his actions to his colleagues; unlike how Bashir confronted Admiral Ross in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and thus forcing Ross to answer for his actions in that episode.

I wish Bashir would have found out about this. I can only imagine how Bashir would have reacted and what he might have said to Sisko. Of course, if the writers had done that, they would have only made things more complicated for themselves.

Bashir had enough information that he might have been able to put it together. Biomimetic gel + Quark was assaulted but declines to press charges + Vreenak's ship explodes near the station, but nobody admits to knowing what they were doing at the station = very curious Bashir. At that point he might also look in medical logs to discover that Garak was treated for a sore jaw, and that might lead him to Tolar's death and discovering what his earlier career was.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I think once the news of Vreenak's death had come out, Dax, Bashir, Worf, Quark and the rest had enough pieces of the puzzle to suss out that some shenanigans had gone on with Sisko and Garak if they had sat down with each other and had one of those meaningful conversations that characters in TV shows and movies never have that would explain the entire mystery.

Quark wouldn't care and would be more interested in saving his own skin, but Dax and Bashir both know how depressed Sisko was and desperate to get the Romulans into the war, and then *poof* the solution presents itself, and he's been doing all kinds of suspicious activities with Garak, someone he loathes, and making all kinds of cryptic comments and odd requests.

I think they deliberately chose to let the matter go without question because they didn't want to believe Sisko was capable of that and didn't want their suspicions confirmed, they didn't want to be implicated or to implicate Sisko in a crime, and didn't want to potentially stop the Romulans from allying with the Federation or possibly turning against the Federation.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

But Vreenak probably also had his share of allies as well, within the Tal'Shiar and the military, I would imagine.

I agree. I don't think the Romulans would want the Federation to get into the habit of assassinating their people.

I can imagine Vreenak's allies in the Tal'Shiar plotting revenge as soon as they discover the sordid facts of the matter. A discriminate and proportionate response would be par for the course. That would mean taking out Garak, preferably with an explosion; and possibly taking out Sisko too.

For the most part the Tal'Shiar was in favor of the Alliance with the Federation and war with the Dominion. They had constructed their own fleet of Warbirds in secret to launch a genocidal strike on the Founder's Homeworld along with the Cardassian Obsidian Order.

They had conspired with Section 31 and the Starfleet admiralty to remove the sympathetic and pro-Tripartate Alliance Sen. Cretak from contention for the Romulan Continuing Committee because she was a Romulan patriot and would vote to make peace with the Dominion if they offered Romulus favorable terms, while Tal'Shiar Director Koval was outwardly unsympathetic and opposed to the Alliance but was secretly working with Starfleet Intelligence and if he got on the Continuing Committee would be guaranteed to vote in favor of the Romulans remaining at war with the Dominion.

Also, speaking of consequences, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges also revealed that the Tal'Shiar, or perhaps the Tal'Shiar working with Section 31 (since Sloan knew all about it and probably falsely claimed Fujisake was his mentor), had assassinated Starfleet Admiral Fujisake with poison, possibly in retribution for Sen. Vreenak's death, or possibly because he was opposed to the alliance with the Romulans (that's speculation on my part) and getting him out of he way greased the wheels a bit for the alliance to happen.

 

[BillJ]

“Hollow Men” by Una McCormack.

 

[fireproof78]

ETA: The writers were clever not to have any of the other characters, besides Sisko and Garak, in on the plot. Garak is a natural for this type of operation. By not including any of the other characters in the scheme, the writers avoided the potential of unnecessarily sullying any of the other character's reputation with the audience, that is, assuming the audience would view the plot/assassination negatively.

Which is the way that Sisko, and Ross, would have preferred it. We see both are men of deeply held principles, but not only that they also care about the lives lost in the Dominion War. To them, they struggle with the conflict of trying to peacefully explore and coexist with their neighbors *and* face the very real threat of a power not only destabilizing the balance of power, but able to conquer the Alpha Quadrant by either force or negotiation. None of those prospects sound very appealing when one looks at them.

As for if the other characters found out I think it would be a long discussion over principles, long held and compromises that they didn't think they would have to make until the Dominion War happened. And they would find a way to make peace with it.

 

[Dee1891]

It's not supposed to sit well with the audience. There are plenty of excuses as Sisko logs about, but ultimately it does not sit well with him, and the actions of the war do not sit well with Ross or Sisko at the end.

It's not supposed to sit well? Then why bring up the topic in one episode and ignore it for the rest of the series? Especially when that show is supposed to be a serialized drama? This is typical Trek, especially when it comes to Starfleet/Federation moral ambiguity. Create a topic that challenges the Starfleet/Federation moral compass for one or two episodes . . . and then permanently drop it. Very typical for this franchise and very frustrating.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not supposed to sit well? Then why bring up the topic in one episode and ignore it for the rest of the series? Especially when that show is supposed to be a serialized drama? This is typical Trek, especially when it comes to Starfleet/Federation moral ambiguity. Create a topic that challenges the Starfleet/Federation moral compass for one or two episodes . . . and then permanently drop it. Very typical for this franchise and very frustrating.

It is very typical for the franchise and, in my opinion, can be stronger for it. Telling the audience the answer is a risky proposition. It can be done very well, but it can also come across as preachy and moralizing. I agree there should be consequences but I think the larger point is that the audience is supposed to talk about it and reflect upon it and their own values. Especially in a franchise which espouses "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

As I said, it isn't supposed to sit well. I personally don't believe Sisko can live with it, and his pouring out the drink on Cardassia was symbolic of that fact.